Episode 5.2 — The Discipline of Friendship

Welcome to The Student Podcast. This is where two guys get together and we discuss and learn how to be students of Jesus Christ. So good to have you today. Is there other classes you're doing as well with this? Yeah, so there's two semester-long classes that are going concurrently with this one. This one will end halfway through the semester and then we'll start another class. So one of my other classes right now I'm really interested in is called clinical and professional skills and in the past it's just been like how do you talk to a patient, communicate effectively and empathetically, and like structure an interview, like what are the parts to a patient interview. This semester it's more like Okay, here's a chief complaint of chest pain.
What questions do you want to ask about chest pain? And why do you want to ask them? And what is the like flow chart in your head of like, okay, it could be this thing. And if I ask this question, it's positive, then it's probably this thing, you know, just kind of like, okay, starting to tease out a differential diagnosis in your head, and like physical exam, like what, what maneuvers do you want to do? Like, what do you expect when you hear them?
So we've had more of these, like, It feels much more like, okay, how to be an actual PA now instead of kind of the building. And you had to have the building watched to get there. But right now it's like, okay, I think this is the kind of training that is going to prepare me to be out in clinic come January.
So that's way more enjoyable. I'm sure that's got to be exciting because it's like, practical application. Yes. It's much more practical. And like I said, we spent a year doing the building blocks and a lot of foundational science and stuff. And there's still some of that to be learned. But it's just kind of like, OK, and let's get to the front end of this clinic side and practical and helping people. Even in seminary, I would regularly kind of come to this point in classes where I would ask Dr. Gamble or Dr. York or C.J. Williams, I would ask them, Okay, so how do I explain that to people in the church?
Yeah. Yeah, like so Here's this scenario. Mm-hmm. How would this apply here? And so it's kind of like the practical application is I can see how that would be very rewarding. Yeah Yeah, it's like I I'm not being trained to be a microbiologist right now I'm being trained to be a PA but microbiology helps me to be a PA so it's just like keeping in perspective or like I I'm not studying to be a Hebrew scholar, but I want to be a pastor. But like, how does, you know, studying Hebrew play into that?
And, you know, yeah. Okay. And part of it's just like swallowing contentment and be like, okay, this is where you're at in this season of life because mentally I'm often like two or three seasons ahead of myself in life. I'm like, okay. Life, baby, fatherhood, job, moving, career, right? And it's like, no, it's cool to dream about that, but you're here. So be content and just work with what you have and be faithful in it and plan for the future, but don't be discontent just because you're not there yet.
Amen. Well, welcome to the student podcast. Yeah. Thanks for having me back. Yeah. We are kind of a big switch now. The first half of the book has all been on relationships. And now he switches over to a new section on the soul. OK. And so. Honest disclaimer right up front.
I thought I remembered that we didn't finish the last chapter. Oh, did we not finish chapter 5? But I could be wrong. The Discipline of Friendship. I reread the entire Discipline of Friendship, and I have not read more. OK. So we can discuss Chapter 6, but it might be a monologue. No, no, no, no, no. That's fine. Where did we get, then, with Discipline of Friendship? That's a good question. You know what?
I bet we are on mine. It would be page 64 or 63, A Great Loss. That's kind of what I was remembering, was maybe. And there's really not much more to the chapter. I think we just ended up going a little long, and then we're like, oh, we should break this. Yeah. And I could be wrong in remembering that. Nope. No, this is good. This is good, man. Yeah. I think that'll be helpful. So why don't we just go ahead and jump into it? I think we had last time. You know, I think we are on page 64 because I think we had talked about Tolkien and C.S. Lewis and their friendship. Possibly, yeah. If you can't tell at home, it's been an intermittent schedule here on the podcast. Yep. I've been away, you've been away, there's been trips, there's been stuff, there's been just sicknesses and so, yeah.
So, I think where we left off last time was Yeah, because I remember getting down C.S. Lewis's biography, The Narnian, when he talks about the nothing better than hearing grown men laugh. Just that friendship together. So, I think that's where we left off, especially, you know, Lewis's friendship with Tolkien and the coal biters and this sense of fraternity that we've lost in our age of over-sexualization and so, Especially I one of the things we didn't really touch on last time and I think we're gonna have an opportunity this time to talk about is the Isolation that has happened. I mean even since my version of this copy was written with the rise of social media and the ubiquitous ubiquity of the internet just right I mean you I I don't want the metaverse, I want friendships. There's something to sitting down and having a meal and talking and verbally processing.
Yeah, or even still even strange is the good old-fashioned telephone call. I know that's rare for a lot of people. It's increasingly rare for even me and it's like, even people, you know, that's not even in person, but that's kind of navigated away from many times. Yeah, you know, that's a weird thing to bring up, right? Because I went back to my flip phone. Yeah, I remember you saying that. And it's a lot harder to send long text messages. And so, I think I have like 140 characters or something like that. And then it starts breaking it up into multiple text messages. You've gotten some of those multiple text messages from me.
I remember being the author of many of those back when I had t9 and just don't miss it go back in exactly exactly right and so um i find myself sometimes just being annoyed and be like i'll just call them yeah yeah like it there's there's too much to write here i'm just going to call them but you know, on my iPhone, I was just able to talk into it even, and it would just type it all out, and I'd hit send, and it'd send it off. And then it became even easier because iCloud would sync with my phone, and so I could send text messages like through iMessage on my phone. So it was just like old school, you know, AOL chat, you know, just like, I said, well, just send messages quick.
Where now it's kind of like, I got to be very purposeful. And so in some ways it's difficult because I don't text nearly as many people as I used to. Yeah. But in other ways, it's very helpful because the people I do communicate with, I feel like there's a deeper level of communication. I just have to be very, so like the text messages I send you in the mornings, I'm often sitting there. And trying to get them worked out.
But phone calls, yeah, just pick up the phone and call. But it's amazing how many people, It doesn't matter if I call them, they're not going to answer their phone. Like, our culture is just moving away. Like, my brother, I tried to call him and he's just like, why'd you call me? Yeah. What is this? Exactly. If I was to call him because we were supposed to meet up or something like that, but just to call him, just to call him, he'd say, that's weird, you know? Yeah. Well, let's go ahead and jump in into this part, right?
So, under discipline of friendship, this is where he really gets kind of into the more nitty-gritty of things. So, he talks about, under discipline of friendship, today friendship has fallen on hard times. Few men have good friends, much less deep friendships. Why do you, in your life, why do you think that's the case? That even when we might have friendships, they often are superficial.
Yeah. I think he touched on it somewhere in here. He talked about how friends or men are more likely to make friends out of passing acquaintances, and like call that their friend. And I think some of that's due to the nature of a lot of our interactions, that they're work-based, they're professional-based. So it's like, okay, I know that name, and I know that person, I know what they do, and, you know, kind of how they function as a human being, but... Beyond that, not too much more, and I'm fine with that, and I'll call him a friend.
I think, too, more of it is a pride issue of vulnerability. I don't think men like to be vulnerable. I don't think anyone likes to be vulnerable, but I think men, by nature, are less willing to be vulnerable than women are. And you talked about how women are, their friendships are usually based more on sharing, where ours are, I can't remember what he talked about, but more like an acquaintance type, um, uh, friendship base. And, uh, I think, I think part of that's because to, to be, to be a deep friend, to have a deep friendship means exposing who you really are, being honest about yourself and being frank with the person that you're a friend with. And men, men don't like that. Um, by any jibe, you know, that's kind of a blanket stereotype, but I think that's part of how, how, how we're wired to some extent in, And more, it's part of how we've fallen as a male gender.
Yeah, I think there's a lot of truth to that. I think there's also, culture is interesting, you know, because tied into that is also this I was watching a video this week, and it was 11 things to help you if you're socially awkward. I don't know why YouTube decided I should see that video. The logarithm, spit it out. All right, Google, you think I'm socially awkward. That's fine. Maybe it's because you're on YouTube.
But one of them was specifically talking about social cues. people won't trust you if you don't talk about yourself or have any self-revelation. So you might think you're being a good listener by just hearing everything, but if you're not actually giving any information about yourself, then people won't trust you. But on the opposite side of that, and this is a cultural thing, especially in the West, is, but if you give too much information about yourself, then people are like, whoa, right and they're like you just talk about yourself all the time well even if it's just too much sensitive information disclosure yeah you know um you know This is a weird example, right? But imagine you meet an old man at church and he's like, man, I had real bad hemorrhoids.
And you're like, that's a weird way to start the conversation, you know? That's- Too much information. Exactly. I don't know you that well, you know? But the point, his whole point being is in the West, we have this difficulty with how do you then get into those deep conversations? How do you have that self-disclosure to someone to know when they're sick, when they're hurting, what's going on in their lives?
And so, I think it takes actual work. And so, he talks about the work here as practice some simple disciplines of friendship. And the first one he lists there is prayer. Why do you think it's important to pray regarding friendship? Yeah, I think it comes down to understanding friendship as a gift. And it's not a burden and it's not a reality you have to live with. It's a gift of how God made us ontologically as people who need to live in community. And it's a blessing to get to live that way.
And if you understand that your father is a good father who loves to give his children good gifts, you know, he's not refused to himself, you know, and understanding, you know, I think, I think if you, if you have a cynical view of friendship, and maybe that's, you know, some who are listening, who just, you know, the only friends they've had have been bad friends, or they just haven't had much blessing that way. It's hard to understand. It's hard to understand that it is a blessing and pray for it. um but understanding that coming to God as a good father to give good gifts like what else are you left to do but to pray right like you know God I want this like this is good you are good give me this good gift and this is something Natalie and I have really prayed for quite a lot being oh sorry coming to a new place where we didn't know anybody and it's like okay yes you have each other and that's great and you can come to home to each other every day but We need community outside the home for us not to go crazy for one, but also for the health of our marriage. both of us spiritually, individually, and to be light in this world, God has called us to be, and spend some serious time praying over this, and seeing God do that in slow ways, unique ways, right when we needed it. Sometimes it'd be like, God, couldn't that have come sooner?
But yeah, felt quite a bit of dependency on God and prayer for friendship in this season of life, which I don't know if I'd experienced too much before, so yeah.
So growing up, I know you were a homeschooled kid, was it difficult for you to make friends growing up? Yeah, being a little bit vulnerable here, that's a bit of a sore spot, honestly, in my childhood. Yeah, so I was one of eight in number four, and my parents were just very, very busy, and there were not a lot of social opportunities growing up. So yeah, that was something that was, not an enjoyable aspect of childhood.
I'll say that. Yeah, I can imagine. I was opposite. I was public school, Southern California, large school, large classes, plenty of people around, but we moved. All the time. And so part of that was hard providences. Part of that was bad financial decisions. But I think by the time I got to high school, I had moved, I think I'd been in eight or nine different schools. And so never long enough to go through entire grades with people. You're always the new kid on the block everywhere you go.
Exactly, so Had some friendships in high school, but even now like I don't talk with those people from high school Part of that's probably very good because the friends I had in high school were not the type of friends I should have now And I mean my deepest friendships aren't actually from growing up as a kid or, I mean, there's some friends that I have in the Navy that, I mean, we went through a lot together.
But there are people I still email and call and get ahold of and stuff like that. But it's really, the deepest friendships I've had have been with men in the church, once I became a Christian. Pastor Snap, I still consider a very dear friend. We were in Tennessee a couple weeks, or last year, in the fall. And the highlight of the trip was getting to go and spend some time with Byron. I haven't seen him for years. we still write each other, not as often as we should, and that's my fault, not his. He's very faithful in communication. I'm the one who's like, always dropping the ball here.
But like, so him and then Pastor Micah at Eastvale, I mean, it was pretty rare for Micah and I not to meet together for something during the middle of the week, whether it was taking a hike in the woods or You know helping him with something around the house or you know Prayer meeting or there's always something that we were and then obviously on the Lord's Day having lots of time together to talk I Think about how much time I took from those two men.
Yeah, but there's some of my two dearest friends. Yeah And so the Lord really for me when it comes to prayer here There's friendships by investing time With the men who would I would pray with and for and I know they were praying for me. Yeah And I think that's another aspect of this because here he's talking about praying for friendship But I think also praying for your friends like once you have a friend praying for that person.
That's what I mean because Deep friendship doesn't necessarily just abracadabra, it's there overnight. You might meet someone you have a lot of common with and you're like, oh man, I just wish we could be closer. I wish this would go to be a deeper relationship. But I think praying for that person is a way for that relationship to deepen. Because you can really love that person well, you can share their needs, you can share their burdens, you can share their joys.
Next time you see him, you can honestly say, I prayed for you. Or what can I be praying for? And I think that's not just praying for relationships to happen, but for the relationships you have, pray for those people. Yeah, absolutely. pray for everybody in the church at least once a month. You know, the prayer calendar is right here. So John and Rosalie were the prayer calendar today, you know. Often there's much more praying than that, but no matter what, everybody's getting hit at least once a month. Right.
But there are certain, specifically men in the church that I've tried to cultivate friendships with that that communication happens a lot more. How can I be praying for you? How did this going? Or you've been the victim of my hit and run. Hey, I was praying for you about this.
And so I think cultivating that heart of thoughtfulness about someone else is shown, I think, especially in prayer, You know, you're not getting anything from that other person. You're serving them by taking them to the throne of grace, you know And so yeah, I I Think his his comment here is He talks about, no matter what our disposition, we need to work at friendliness. This is after prayer. Let's go ahead and talk about friendliness after prayer.
What's your takeaway with that section? Yeah. It's interesting, because I think my gut reaction is like, oh, you know, some men you know, are outgoing and some are introverted. And I think his call here is, he says, men, we must place ourselves in the ways of friendship. And he gives examples of like adult Sunday school class, home Bible study, men's Bible study, men's breakfast group, things like that. And just so that no matter if you're the guy who's just like, hey, how are you doing?
Or if you're someone who's more introverted, to put yourself in the way of friendship and to be available, to not just go hide in your office or whatever. And to be conversational as much as you can. Why do you have to look at me when you say that, man? Not just go hide in your office. No, I'm talking about myself.
Because that's what I'm like at school. but yeah i think i think that's kind of what i took from it because i think they're yeah to some extent like yes we need to get outside of ourselves but you also don't want to portray like a false like a false friendliness where it's like hi how are you you know and just like a kind of a forced mechanical like just to do it just to do it um but i think what he's calling us to do here is just to integrate ourselves and immerse ourselves in in venues for friendship and to be that presence to be available for friendship. Yeah, now one of the things that I think is important with this is normally I don't recommend this book broadly, you know, but Dale Carnegie's book, How to Win Friends and Influence People. How to Win Friends is the first part of the book, right? But, and people manipulate this, right? And he actually gives this example, right?
He talks about how he was at a post office and he could tell that the clerk was just having a horrible day. And so when he got up to the counter, they were just, he was very dour and he was just like, wow, your hair looks really nice. And the guy was just like. just thank you so much. I've always liked my hair, you know.
This is a silly story, you know, but he said afterwards somebody came up after the seminar and was like, so what were you trying to get out of him? And he was like, what do you mean? And he was like, well, what were you trying to get from that? And he was like, if you're so cold and heartless that you can't find joy in making another person smile, I pity you. So yes, it can be manipulated. This guy's like, well, what's your spin? What are you trying to get out of the guy at the post office? Money off your stamps or something? No, I just want to be friendly.
And one of the biggest things that Dale Carnegie teaches in that book that's helpful is to be, keyword, genuinely interested in people. So I've experienced this before where people have made Newcomers and stuff at different churches and well, it was just kind of hard to connect there. Mm-hmm And then I sit there in in my memory trying to think through how the conversations go It was very much that person wanting other people to ask them about themselves, right? But they weren't asking these people about their lives.
And so becoming genuinely injured. So you go to a men's study, ask somebody about their, oh, what do you do for a living? Oh, were you raised from here? If you know nothing about being a physician's assistant, How long is that? Like, how is that different than going to med school?
Actually being genuinely curious to find out about this person and then, you know, because then you actually start to build rapport with them because you show them, I'm actually interested in you as you, a person. And so I think that's one of the parts here. We need to work at friendliness. I would say we need to learn that actually part of friendliness is not just putting on a fake smile like, hey, how are you? But when you sit down next to someone at men's breakfast and they got some shirt on that says that they've, a marathon shirt or something, oh, do you run a marathon?
And I think too it's like it's just maybe this is a stupid simple obvious fact, but like people are interesting They are interesting. I mean Like you get to talking to someone someone has a really unique fact about I guarantee everyone has something about them That's just like wow, that is amazing. Yeah, I mean our neighbor Natalie ran into her the other day and we've ran it we've known her, you know for a year And just in passing finds out she grew up in France and she grew up in Germany in concentration camps her parents were like murdered by the Nazis like her family's like mostly dead really like I mean like all this stuff and like Whoa, like, you know, you live just across the hallway from us, like, you know? Wow. And so, just like, wow, you know, I went to, just believing that someone's interesting and they're worth your time to just talk to, you know, like, that's amazing, you know?
Yeah, but I think, so taking that, right, that somebody is interesting and tying it together with what he's saying here, like, purposely build in negative space in your life where you can just hang out, right? And this is costly. I think that's one of the things that people will often see friendship as a consuming, like, I get something out of this.
But Jesus called his disciples, his friends, and he poured out his life into them, right? I'm sure it was rewarding for our Savior. But he was about blessing the people he was with. And in turn, they loved him. I think that's one of the things here is like, for people who are genuinely desiring friendship, I would encourage them, go genuinely seek to serve others. And then Lord willing, somebody will catch and it will be, by catch I don't mean you're trying to catch friends or something like that, but the Lord will incline someone else's heart toward you.
Why, pardon me, we were talking about David and Jonathan, right? The devotion of Jonathan to David, Was seen in his humility in his service in his interest toward David's status and kingship like He humbled himself and this is one of the things that endeared David to Jonathan Man, this is this guy's the real deal Yeah, I think it's very easy to be selfish in friendship and in seeking it out like you were saying like what What will they ask about me?
What can I get out of this? What kind of a friend will they be to me? And a lot of it is, you know. what kind of a, changing that mentality to what kind of a friend can I be to them? What can I learn about them? What can, how can I serve their social needs, their emotional needs? How can I come alongside them as a brother or sister in Christ and just establish true fellowship here?
And a lot of times it's casting your bet on the water. And then finally it's like, okay, yes, you know, like, and, and sometimes, you know, I think it's part of that, Christlike mentality like give and don't expect back, you know, sometimes you don't you know, there's many a relationship in college that you just pour into and it's like, okay, we're washing our hands like, you know, that person walked away and never gonna see him again spent hours with them and like Yeah, but the whole question is like am I upset about that? Because I wanted something out of it, you know, that's a that's a selfish motive in friendship or am I just grateful that God brought that person along and I was able to talk to them on these many occasions and learn about them.
It's kind of a paradigm shift and it's really easy to become selfish socially and selfish emotionally with friendship. don't open yourself up because it hurts. Because what happens if somebody turns away? What happens if somebody decides to take a new job, goes to a different workplace, transfer school, move to a new location, whatever, breaks that friendship? Friendship is vulnerability.
There's a certain amount that you are saying, You know, I desire a relationship, and relationships in a fallen world always bear the possibility of hurt. But that also shows the possibility for redemption. And so, I think there are toxic friendships, you know, friendships that are always one-sided that are kind of like, okay.
This is not actually, you know, building me up. It's not edifying. This person is, you know, do not be deceived. Bad company corrupts good morals. You know, this person that I have tried to be a friend to, they can still be my brother and sister in Christ, but I find when I'm spending too much time with that person or trying to invest too much time into this person, it's actually damaging my walk with Christ. And so, I think there are times to say, this is not the friendship I should be pursuing. Which is sad to say, but I think that's also part of being a good friend is being able to recognize sometimes This is not a healthy friendship Because what he's trying to get us to here is deep Theologically rich You know soul nourishing type friendships not just Vapid friendship for friendship sake right type stuff.
Yeah Well that that kind of leads us into Listen the the next part he talks about work. Yeah, what's his what's he getting at there? Oh I'm basically saying, if you want friendship, you're going to have to work at it. You can work for a PhD, you can work for a million dollars. He says, we generally get what we set our sights on. It is the same with friendship. Those who have friends place importance on them.
Is it the situation where you're like, oh, I forgot to call you. Because you were at the bottom of my list, you know, yeah or no, you know, yeah Are you do you actually think friends are important? Do you think friendship is important in your life? And are you willing to work for it? Because it yeah, I mean Jonathan and David's relationship took sacrifice covenant commitment, you know, you know, I'm gonna and sacrifice for each other Yeah, and keeping a friendship, maintaining a friendship takes work, right?
It doesn't just happen overnight. I've had some wonderful friendships with men that, I mean, we, I specifically think of this group of guys, there was six of us, who would meet, I think it was every Tuesday night, and we'd meet for this accountability discipleship group and pray with each other, pray for one another.
And it was somewhat sad to me when I saw some of these men just slowly start not wanting to put in the work, you know, it was easier to go, you know, watch TV or, you know, hang out someplace at college or something like that, rather than actually investing in this relationship.
And it was kind of like, Yeah. And so, the friendship fizzled up. This is the whole point of, like, I've dropped the ball with Pastors Now. We're not as close as we are today as we were when I was living in Virginia, because I used to go and see him two times a week in the middle of the week, and I'd see him on Lord's Day also, and I don't see him that often anymore. Right.
And so, when we get back together, though, those dividends are there that we can pick back up and keep going. Same thing with Micah, you know, because it's mainly those friendships changed because of change of location, but not because one person in the party decided, eh, I don't want to work on this anymore. And so, yeah, I think that that's actually an important part. We think that Friendships are just going to happen. And they're just going to stay. And it's like, no, it's not.
And it takes work to, you know, like you said, anytime you get two sinners together, there's potential for hurt, right? And it takes work to push through that. It takes work to forgive. It takes work to persist and to be the one who has the cold shoulder turned against, right? And to continue to love.
And then, you know, so. Yeah. Let's talk about this next one. Maybe this is on his paragraph here on affirmation. Do you think that this is just vain flattery? No. I mean, I think maybe we could talk about encouragement. Okay. He mentioned that as an element of Jonathan and David's relationship, unless he has that under it. No, he doesn't have that under it, separate. I mean, I would take it as encouragement, like, brother, I see God's doing X in your life, like, praise God, you know, like, brother, like, you know, from where you were a month ago, like, look what God's done, you know, or brother, keep on doing, you know, Wait this discipline or this habit or whatever it is, you know I think I think true like Because we don't want to just be patronizing and be like, oh he said something good to me I need to say something back or right or or just to you know, smooth things over to affirm and to flatter that way, but I think generally looking at each other as brothers in whom the Holy Spirit is working and encouraging each other for that work. Yeah. I think, interestingly enough, Hebrews chapter 10, when the family of God is supposed to get together, it's for something. Let me see if I can get there here. Hebrews chapter 10, 24-25. Pages are sticking here.
Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another." Like one of the reasons why we come to worship is, I'm encouraged. by spending time with you each Lord's Day.
And I'm just going to say this. This is not vain flattery, but this is encouraging you as a good friend. I'm always appreciative as the pastor, you know, after I give sermons and I always feel like my, like sermons are just like blech, you know, like, well, that was too long, too basic. You know, I wish I could be one of these, you know, Alistair Beggs or someone, you know, but I'm too Brian, you know, I'm not, I'm not these guys. And so, but when you come down at lunch and you actually want to talk about the substance of things, you're like, thank you for pointing me to Christ.
It's like, that's a huge encouragement to my soul. Like, Lord, somebody was encouraged today. And so, when we, this is just me giving an example, right? You're a huge encouragement to me. So, seeing each other at church is an encouragement. But I think sometimes we come to church and do we actually take seriously that that's a time that we can encourage people.
Like, do we come to church and think, I wonder who I can encourage today? I wonder who might be going through a difficulty. I wonder who might be struggling with something going on in their life. I wonder, you know, what's going on with that family in the wake of their parents' death. How can I encourage people in the church?
Yeah, I don't want this to come off wrong, but I think it's very easy for us to, personally, confess like, hey, brother, I'm, I'm struggling with this, or like, you know, this has been really rough for me or to see and other people like, Oh, man, like, yeah, they need to amend their ways on that one. Like, you know, they're going down the wrong path.
And I think there's a place for that. I don't want to put that in a bad light. But I think we're far more quick to focus on that aspect of sanctification rather than to encourage and praise God for what has been done. And I think there's a place for both, so I don't want it to be misunderstood, but I think we can just be like, oh, there's only one way to go and that's like, you know, there's only one aspect of sanctification and that's to get better, right? And it's like, no, let's praise God for the fruit that he is Already born and so I think we're very hesitant to be like brother praise god for you know The way he's like growing you in holiness and issue x or whatever, you know, like that's rare I find that goes against even my own heart to like just be like, yeah, let's do that rather than like Yeah, I really understand you're showing with that. Let me pray for you. Yeah, you know and Like I said, there's a place for both, but what would church look like if we were more ready to give encouragement and see the fruit and praise God for what he's doing in the body of Christ?
Yeah. Yeah. I think you're spot on with that. You know, it's really easy to feel like everything's spiritual, especially in the reformed world, you know, where we believe in total depravity, you know, radical corruption, you know, like, oh, everything is going wrong, so let's take this to the most grave extreme rather than Well, hold on, that is part of it, you know, but what about just encouraging the ladies who are doing work in the kitchen? what about thanking the deacons for their work? What about driving down the road and when you see the beauty of one of the farmer's fields being like, how do you keep that field without any weeds? This is incredible to me. Yeah, they're all in exactly straight rows. How do you do that? And the farmers will tell you all about how they, all of them have their different ways and their different plans, you know, and how they do these things.
But how do we become a culture of encouragers? And in friendship, I think it's especially important because if you're only there as a shoulder to cry on, but not there also as the Barnabas, you know, the son of encouragement who's always, come on, let's go to Cyprus. I have some buddies there. I bet we could share the gospel with them. You're filled with the Holy Spirit, let's go, you know? How can we be those encouragers to our friends.
So, I think that's a big one. We've talked about this a little bit. Let's pick up on this next one, right? On this discipline of friendship, working on friendship, the discipline of listening, Yeah, I think part of it comes back to that idea of being interested in others, like asking about them and listening what they have to say.
I can't, I'm notorious for this, meeting a new person. I'm so excited to like meet them. I'm like, what's your name? And boop, we're in one ear and out the other. And it's like, I'm only asking them what's their name because I know that's the next that's supposed to happen in the conversation, right? And it's just like, and by the end of it, it's like, you have a really interesting life, but I completely forgot your name. Can you tell me again?
And it's like, okay, were you actually listening, Simon? But yeah, being interested in others and like hearing what they have to say, not only listening, you know, but, and part of being a good conversationalist is listening. So then you know what to converse back with, right? Like, okay, I heard you said this, you know, Yeah, listening isn't a passive exercise, but it's an active exercise in which you're taking in, processing, thinking about, follow up. Okay, what does that mean for them? What does that mean in their lives? How does this play out? Again, that genuine curiosity in people.
Micah, my old pastor, used to tell me, I shouldn't say he used to tell me, he told me this one time and it's always stuck with me. He said, you know why I think we don't remember people's names after we meet them? I thought, no, why is that Micah? He said, I don't think we actually love them. And it was just kind of like a firebrand in my soul, you know, like, man, you didn't have to lay it on that thick, you know, I don't love that person. But in reality, you're right. I didn't actually want to invest in them. I was interested for a moment, small talk, chit chat, but I didn't actually want to develop a relationship with that person. They're not valuable enough for me to remember their names.
Versus I remember hearing a story one time of a guy at a church who always knew everybody's names. And he also figured out everybody's birthdays. And so he would purposely tell people happy birthday on Sunday and things like this. And when he died, they found he had a little notebook that he kept notes of everybody's names and birthdays and he would write down information about them. Because he actually cared about, okay, they told me this, this was their kids' names. This is what their kids did. And like, he would actually go back and process like who these people were because he wanted to actually develop those friendships in the congregation. And I don't think he was close friends with every single person, but that was a way in which he was able to love people when they would walk in the door.
Oh, hey Bob, it's good to see you. One of the things I absolutely hate at church is when I forget people's names, and I'm like, I know you. You know I know you, because I've been at your house a million times. The worst one was one day at Chalk and Talk. I was looking at Sharon Pilling right in the face, and she had volunteered to pray for something, and I was like, And she's like, Sharon, I was like, yeah, I was getting there.
I knew it. It was just like this mental buffering block. Yeah, exactly. You know, the pinwheel of death was there. And I was so embarrassed because it's in front of everybody. And I was like, it's even Sharon R.P. Church. Like, give me a break, Brian. That one was one of those like, oh, come on. Well, let's go ahead and talk about this next one. Acceptance.
His his point on acceptance I think is a big one especially As we communicate with people how do how have you seen people you've interact with? Shut the door of acceptance Yeah, I mean, I think just being the recipient of of being not accepted in conversation, I think looks a lot like, you know, minimal eye contact, very shallow conversation, minimal conversation, and a lot of either formalities and not being interested. There's just a genuine non-interest in the other person, whether that's keeping it at formalities, not asking intentional questions, body language.
I think body language is a big one. What are we saying? Our face and Words might be like hello. Have a good morning, you know, but our bodies saying the opposite Mm-hmm. And yeah, I think it's a multifaceted like how are we carrying ourself in conversation? because he says an open accepting soul is like a well-lit home on a cold dark night and they You know, these are That's another person. They're meeting God's image like they might just want someone to talk to you.
Yeah, and And it might be a bad time for you. It might not be someone you get along with necessarily. It might be someone of a very, very different worldview. Can you be that well at home? Can you just be someone to talk to as another human? And that's difficult for me. And not surprisingly, it's difficult for other people with me sometimes.
Yeah, I think he talks about the sarcastic smile, the innuendos, the awkward silences, the club atmosphere. This is one of the things that in a historic established church where people have known each other for decades, I think it's a danger. It's a danger in a lot of churches, especially the club atmosphere. Weird the people have always been here and kind of really difficult to get in with people And I mean, I've been a part of various churches and so I'm gonna speak very generically here, but I've heard Men specifically say like, oh, I've I tried to be friends with them, but it was so cliquish like They've been friends. They've always been friends and they have no room for new friends and And then I was kind of like thinking about that and thinking about going back to some of the things we looked at before.
But you didn't try long enough to come to things other than just the one hour worship service. You didn't stick around for lunch. You didn't stick around for different Bible studies and prayer meetings. There was half-heartedness on your part for developing these friendships as well. And so friendship takes work.
And so I was kind of disappointed as I've, and this is multiple people at different churches, I'm speaking very generically here. Because I've been in, even especially This can especially be true in very small and very conservative Reformed churches, where it can feel very cliquish because it's almost like this small tribe who's been together forever. Right, yeah. So, I've been a member of a number of those churches.
And so, what is one of the ways, this is my favorite part of this chapter, what is one of the, or this section of the chapter, what is one of the best ways to develop friendships. Yeah, he ends it with hospitality. Yeah. Loving the stranger. Yeah. Yeah.
What is the best way to show hospitality? Opening the home, having someone over for dinner is what we like to do. Just get to know them, share a meal with them, break bread, fellowship, just converse over dinner. Yeah, actually set up the environment that's conducive to talking with someone, getting to know them.
We made it a very purposeful decision when we moved here, that big black table. was bought, you know, there's only six of us. That table sits like, I don't know, like 10 to 15. I don't know how many people could fit around that, but we bought that table on purpose because we wanted other families to be able to come.
And then we were also very purposeful about we had every single family from the church who would come to our house for a meal because we wanted to What, you know, were you raised around here? What was it like being raised around here? How did you guys meet? What were your parents like?
You know, trying to foster these friendships in the congregation. But a lot of times people, you know, There's this almost like hit-and-run Version of church, you know, you come for worship and then you just leave right and I understand some people are very Private people and they're not good in crowds and things like that. There's not good conversationalists Some of them are the sweetest people I've ever met. Yeah So I'm not saying that everyone needs to be crazy gregarious or but I Well, just going to put your family out there, you know, like when I was to do communion season at Columbia and your family, I mean, this is how you and I first met and your family was like, Oh, why don't you guys just stay with us? Yeah. And yeah, it's a little bit awkward, it's easier to stay at a hotel. But if family wants to open their doors to us, why would we not? But there are a million reasons why not, right? Well, I might want to get more sleep, there's a pool, it's just easier to stay at a hotel. or I can, you know, like, actually see people and invest in people and hear from people in the church and like, get to know you guys.
And so, there's invaluable things, you know, like seeing you're all's dog, which, you know. There's just a lot, lots of stuff, you know, that like, your guys' piano down in the basement. So it didn't surprise me when I came to your house and you had the piano there and I was like, oh yeah, that's right. There was a piano down in the basement and I heard someone playing while we were there. But you're able to start putting things together when you're in someone's home.
We try to have people in our home And this is one of these difficult things, right? This is a danger, right? Because if somebody really wants a good book on hospitality, the gospel comes with a house key, Rosaria Butterfield, go read that book, don't listen to me, right?
But all I know is my experience here and how people have shown me hospitality. Well, that's one of the ways Pastor Snap and I became friends. He invited me to his home. Pastor Hurst invited me to his home. That's one of the ways in which God engrafted me into the church when I was a new Christian is Dave Miracle invited me into his home multiple times. People invited me to their homes for meals after church.
It's one of the reasons why I'm always like, because we're such a spread out congregation, we try to have meals at the church. because how can we have an informal meal, breaking bread with each other? But there's still nothing like you guys coming over tonight and having soup and seeing my messy office and walking past all my redneck projects in the driveway.
I wasn't gonna say anything. Oh, by the way, public notice, if anybody wants to buy a 1987 Bluebird school bus that's in a camper, it is for sale. My wife would like somebody to take it. But that redneck project needs to go. But that's part of the, the house doesn't have to be perfect.
Okay, so what? There's a laundry basket full of clothes. You don't think other people have laundry? Right. Yeah, there's a level of authenticity that comes with house hospitality and vulnerability with that, though. Because there's some people who are hospitable, and everything's got to be in ship shape in an order. And yeah, Christine, and you can eat off the floor, right? Yeah. I think there's an element to loving your guests well, and not having a trash heap when they show up.
But yeah, at the same time, like if you're like, what's your purpose is your purpose to parade a Pretense of yourself that is not authentic. Mm-hmm. Where's your pretense? Is your goal to just authentically love people and be who you are and to love them where they're at?
Yeah, and I think hospitality done authentically Creates a wonderful environment for that. Yeah, I think there's a difference between hosting. Yeah and hospitality and so If there's Anything that I know in my life has been the most effective is just long conversations, unscheduled time, just spending time together and also people opening their homes. It's one of the reasons why I love doing shepherding visits. Going to somebody's house and seeing. Now they can hide things and anybody can be nice for an hour over coffee and cookies. But actually going and seeing somebody's home and getting to know them in their own environment.
And so I would encourage if anybody's listening right now who's struggling with how to find friends, start inviting people over. I remember when I was a single dude, I was really trying to make Christian friends, and I didn't know how, and I had a little tiny one-bedroom apartment I couldn't have a bunch of people over. I ended up becoming more comfortable with that, but so I would end up having two, three, four people over from church, you know, but of the things that I did was I organized Olive Garden theology talks. So, once a month I would just invite all my friends and I would just, you know, whether it was people from the Navy or people from church, which that was sometimes interesting, you know, and I'd just be like, hey, you want to go to Olive Garden?
We're going to talk theology. And sometimes it would be four of us. Sometimes we'd have to walk in there and wait an hour and a half because there'd be 17 of us, you know. But informal conversations, purposeful. We're just going to get together to be together.
And so, just, I guess that's where I'm trying to say is like, Friendship takes work. Yeah takes thoughtfulness And it takes genuine love being actually interested in other people and a desire to Know them as a person. Mm-hmm Yep doesn't mean it's gonna be easy to make friends with everyone. No, it's not I mean, I mean your best friends with everybody at church.
I I don't know about that. That's the goal. It'd be a little easier if we were able to... make an invitation of hospitality, not feel like it was more of a burden for them. Yeah, yeah. No, I get that. That's tough when you don't live near the church.
How do you, that's again, one of the reasons why we do the meals and I'm so thankful that you and Natalie stay every week for that. Yeah, that's great. I feel like we wouldn't know anybody if we didn't do that. Yeah, but it's a huge encouragement and blessing to us to see you guys stay every Lord's day and the ones that you can. I mean, I keep track of everyone that you don't come to see. Yeah. 91.3% success rate. Yeah, but we, But just getting to, and that doesn't mean that you and I get to sit together at every single meal either.
But there's other people to talk to, other people to learn from. There are times where I sit down with the kids and they entertain me, because it's just like, and they've even got so much stuff going on in their lives. It's like, man, it is. And sitting down with the farmers. Farmers, they're a whole different breed getting to be friends with farmers. It takes a long time. And I just keep learning because their stories are long and old. Well, and they are I learned something new every time I'm around them. They are smart. They are so smart. Like, man, like I get a little biology lesson every time I sit down with Jim. I'm like, how do you know so much? Yeah, the whole stereotype of like a dumb farmer. Oh, it's completely wrong.
Yeah, like these guys are incredible mechanics, amazing with what they do. And it's just like, whether it's raising Angus or, you know, breeding cows or working in the fields or, you know, their handle on the world economy and weather. I'll talk to some of these farmers and they're like, yeah, there was a really bad drought down in Chile, so it's going to raise prices on this and that, and that's going to affect the pork prices.
I'm like, are you kidding me? And then like four or five months later, there it is. I'm like, You got like a fortune teller? Like a little ball or something you look into? But no, they know how things move and work and they just tell me these stories, you know, from some of them I'm talking about, we're talking about like early 1900s and you're like, how do you remember these things? They're all like, oh, you know, before World War II, this part of Iowa, there was this orchard over here and this was going on.
You're like, man. But spending the time and learning from them is so cool. People are interesting. Yeah. Well, I think we, I don't know a smooth way to land this plane, but I'm just going to pray for us. All right. I think that was in the book. Okay.
Father, thank you so much for the gift of friendship. Lord, we thank you for the amazing way in which you have created us in your image to be communal. Lord, we thank you that you have created us with the capacity to show love toward one another. And we thank you that you have called us friends. Father, we pray that we would, by your Spirit, be those people who love to make friends, love to serve friends, love to care for friends. Forgive us for when we can be selfish in our friendships and teach us to be more like you. Thank you for who you are and what you have done.
And God, we pray that the church would flourish in friendship. In Jesus' name, amen. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of The Student Podcast. Feel free to go over to the website, sharonharpc.org backslash student and find more information and other shows. Also, don't forget to leave us a review on Apple Podcast. We appreciate it. Have a great day.