Discipline of Friendship

Welcome to The Student Podcast. This is where two guys get together and we discuss and learn how to be students of Jesus Christ. So good to have you today. Well, I'm really excited about today's chapter. Yeah, discipline of friendship. Yeah, I think it's going to be a really, really fun chapter. I really appreciated it. I think this is something in our society that is just lacking amongst men specifically, and so I'm excited to dig in. You want to pray for us tonight? Yeah, let's do it.
Lord Jesus, we thank you for another day of life, that you have given us a breath in our lungs, that you have caused your Son to shine one more day. Thank you that you are on your throne, and yet you are the creator and sustainer of the universe, yet you are mindful of us, Lord. And we thank you for this time together given by you. We pray that you would be honored in it, Lord, and that you would help us to grow in a biblical understanding of what it means to be a godly friend, a Christ-like friend, We ask for your help in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Amen So maybe I can start off asking this because you and I had two very different upbringings.
Yeah, we're we're your friends people from church or were they people from Organizations sports or some some other organization or where was it your siblings? Yeah, it was mostly my siblings I'll be honest social life growing up is kind of a Hard thing to reflect on for me just because it was fairly lonely. Okay, and The actually so probably my closest friend growing up was a 45 year old man Who we knew he didn't go to our church at the time But was a man from the community Christian man, and he was diagnosed with pulmonary hypertension which uh when he was diagnosed he was given like a year or two to live and by the time he and I became close friends he was on year five or six he was off oxygen he was defying all the odds he was mowing the lawn it was something we did together so he he kind of took me under his wing he was a really close friend the lord took him home unexpectedly freshman year of college, actually. But yeah, so there's, you know, a few good older friends, I guess. But yeah, it was a bit of a lonely social life growing up.
But yeah, what about you? Yeah, so I grew up going to public school, but we moved around a lot. So this, as of Is it today, yesterday, something like that? Is the longest I've ever lived in any house my entire life. I'm surprised you're keeping track of the day. I don't remember anywhere I've lived through that. Well, it's just because Facebook reminds me that it was like five or four years ago. Yeah, yeah, exactly right.
But no, I mean, I went to kindergarten at one school, part of first grade at another school, part of second grade and part of, yeah, part of first grade and part of second grade at another school. Third and fourth grade was at one school and then I went to fifth and sixth for another school and then I moved to Chicago so I was with my dad for a large chunk of my seventh grade year and then back to that same junior high school, but All those friendship bonds were kind of deteriorated by that time. Yeah, and then to high school for one year and then We moved and so I was at another high school for the other three years.
Okay, and so I is really hard to like sink down deep-rooted friendships. We went to the same church that whole time growing up and so I mean they're there are specifically two people that I talk to every couple years or something like that from those churches, or from that church, but then in the Navy, I mean, you develop deep friendships quickly, but then as quickly as they form, they can, yeah, they're gone because the rotational nature of the military. And so, that was, just the nature of it. I mean, I just heard from my buddy Mark, who I was on the ship with, but same thing, you know, he's a Facebook friend. I talk to him every once in a while, but we don't see each other.
And so, it wasn't actually until I went to college that I started to develop being friendships, but the friendships I developed actually weren't amongst my classmates because Olivia and I got married I was going to say you were more of a non-traditional student, right?
Exactly. So, Livia's like legitimately my closest friend. Outside my family, I've known her longer than anybody else. And so, it's actually, like Micah, he became my pastor in 2010, and other than an 18-month stint when we were in Chicago, and even when we were in Chicago, we still visited Beaver Falls regularly and saw them. And so, like Micah's legitimately like one of my best friends.
And so, he and I don't get to talk on the phone nearly as much as I would like, but even just like them coming out here this past year, or this past weekend for the 175th was like, Like, oh, my buddy's here, you know? So, I missed him a lot. So, really, like, there was a lot of loneliness, even though I was around a lot of people, which is interesting how that can happen, you know, even though I see it at the church even sometimes, you know, there's somebody who's there and has been around a while, but hasn't kind of developed that friendship with someone yet.
Pete Right, right. So it's just interesting that even whether you're homeschooled and socially kind of because of the area you are, you just don't have those interactions. Or in my situation, high school was 4,000 people. Right. Yeah. I was graduating class of 658.
I maybe knew a hundred of those people, but I can't say I had a best friend. I think that's what's interesting, just even talking with other men my age. Okay of all the people, do you know who's one guy? You could share everything with who's one guy you would consider like a close friend and even guys I respect in like You know as as friends like a lot of them are like shoot.
I don't have that. You know, um, and so it's very easy. I think culture's um numbed us into this comforter Comfort zone of like, okay, you can have and especially with social media you can have like 500 Knee-deep friends Everything's just very superficial skin deep, but it's really You know, where are those deep? Friendships and how do we do that? Because a lot of that's uncharted territory. Yeah people who have like grown up and just not really knowing what it is to dig deep down and build these heart-to-heart relationships. Yeah, it's one of the things I'm actually learning about rural life.
Yeah. It's like seeing the guys at church, you know, Joe and Mark and Jim, like these guys have known each other their entire lives. Kim and Mark have been on the Deacon board since dinosaurs roamed the earth here. Not really, but I mean, they helped build this house together. I mean, they've planted fields together. They've gone to cattle shows together. They've seen each other in the highs and in the lows, and so they've shared life with each other.
And I think it's just, he gets into this, like our generation, and maybe it's the generation before that, you know, just the isolation is, you know, the silence is deafening. And it's kind of like, something's wrong. Yeah, it's like, I don't know, you hear it all the time. Like, we're the most connected as a world we've ever been. as far as like, you know, communication, right? Like if I want to get ahold of you, I could get ahold of you in three or four different ways probably, right? And yet we're the most isolated we've ever met. You know, it's like this kind of paradox where it's like increased connectivity does not necessarily mean. less isolation.
Jared Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. So, I'm really excited to get into this chapter, just kind of exploring this with you because, I mean, like I said, my two best friends, you know, would be Micah Ramsey, who was my pastor, and then Pastor Snap, who was also my pastor. And so, it was these men who purposely invested themselves in me that it was like, You know, and they went from mentors, and in some ways they still very much are mentors. You know, I take their advice extremely serious. But at the same time, you know, they're my closest friends if I, you know, if I something really serious is going on.
You know, I'm probably going to call Mike or Pastor Snap. Well, he actually talks about, in this first part, the physical changes to architecture. What do you think about that section? Yeah, I thought it was interesting. I know my parents ran into this. So he talks about how long gone are the big front porches, the big dining rooms, the big kitchens.
And so my family was moving back from New Jersey to the Midwest and trying to find a house to buy. And my dad literally would take a tape measure into every house. And the first thing he'd do, he'd go straight to the dining room, measure it. And if it couldn't fit our dining room table, they left. when they were touring a home, and they ended up actually building a custom home that I live in that had a dining room big enough and a kitchen big enough because everything they were finding had a medium-sized dining room, but then a breakfast nook. So we could fit if we were in two different spaces. But it was just interesting even then, like it was such a cultural Signifier, I don't you know how to put it of Family life.
Mm-hmm. Okay, two of us get up in the morning. We're gone two more get up. Someone comes home Maybe it's a snack two more go home, you know eat something, you know Very rarely is there that family togetherness and that was quarter growing up like we Every at least morning and evening we all were together for breakfast and dinner and if there wasn't a home for that we weren't buying Yeah, yeah, I I think it's really Fascinating, you know just that When we lived in Beaver Falls, it was very much a small It's a college town, you know, and I think college towns actually do a good job generally of fostering community can. I'm not saying they always do, but they can. Some type of community, man. The best community.
Yeah. But in Beaver Falls, I mean, we really enjoyed living on College Hill because, you know, we had our house and then right across the street was the Morton's house. And so, you know, on Sabbath afternoons, you know, it was always the thing where we lived right next door to the park. And so, if you walk to the park for us, you know, go to the go off the driveway.
You were bound that people would see you and end up just congregating. But in most neighborhoods today, There's no neighborhood park. You have to drive 10-15 minutes to go to any community space. It's like with the suburbanization of things, you just don't have the places to congregate. And I'm not so sure even if we had places to congregate that it would change much.
Um, elia masio was talking to him about the biggest difference between here and his home country Yeah, and he was just saying it's it's individualism because in his home in kansas city he said they were having a barbecue out in his backyard and multiple different people have owned that home before him and there's a Older widow lady who was next door and they had her over for the barbecue She said this is the first time in 40 years of living in this home that this, anyone in this house next to me has invited me over in this backyard, 40 years.
And it took someone from a different country background moving into that home in 2022 to invite her over. And so just very, very, I don't know, I think as Americans, like, and I even was talking to, with a classmate from India and asked him, he grew up in New Delhi. Like, what's the biggest difference between here and American culture? Because he, or here in Indian culture, he moved when he was 16.
And he said, same thing, individualism. It's just marked individualism in this country. And just, I think our very, like, it's born out in social gathering places. It's born out in our architecture and family life and schedules and what comes first. But I think it's, I'd be, it's just a mark of us as a culture more than anything. Yeah, definitely. It's interesting. He talks about today's homes reflect our modern values of individualism, isolation, and privatization. I think he was spot on with that.
And then in the Again, I don't know what page young kids are reading anymore, but on my page 58, it says, we lack roots, continuity, and community, all of which is to say that friendship, especially deep friendship, has fallen on hard times. Yeah, just kind of like the average American moves four times Yeah, I was actually reading, Hoopla's great, I was listening to it on Hoopla and it had that version, I think this one said 11 times? Is it 11 times? Yeah, my version's from the 90s.
Yeah, let's see. Yeah, the average American will move at least 11 times in his life, even when his job does not demand it. So it must have updated that statistic a little bit, which doesn't surprise me. Wow. 11 times. 11 times. I can't believe that. I mean, I've already moved one, two, three. This is my fourth move. Wow. And I'm 22.
Now, some of that I couldn't control, but. Yeah, there's a lot I could, a lot I could have too also. Yeah, whenever somebody, I forget what I was doing, but they wanted, like, my, like, previous seven addresses or something like that. And I was like, how am I ever going to remember this?
But okay. I think it was like a background check for a job I was applying for, for a mental health facility. I think that's what it was. But it was still like close enough that it was like a whole bunch of Navy moves. And so, it's like, I lived there for like six months.
I don't know. I don't remember the address. Or I hate it when like there's, I'm doing something like applying for a credit card or background check something. And it's like, have you ever been associated with this address? I'm like, I might have. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like the security questions. Yeah. It's like- Is this really you? I don't know. Well, I don't remember living in that one, but I might have lived at that address. Yeah. So, 11 versus four. Yeah, it's possible.
But he talks about the difference between men and women. How do men primarily find their friendships? I'll just read one of the lines. He says, men gear themselves for the marketplace and they typically understand friendships as acquaintances made along the way rather than as relationships. And he also mentions how men don't necessarily open up or reveal feelings or weaknesses as quickly as women do, if at all.
I think it kind of gets back to that idea. Like we're very content with these skin deep superficial relationships and be like, Oh yeah, I know people, you know, whereas like, okay, I know of people, I could tell you their name and what they do. And I think men are very easily content to stop there.
And whether that's something that our culture has made a norm, or I think there is some aspect to where we are wired differently, relationally than women, but women seem at least in this culture are much more ready to go deeper than skin level. Yeah. Yeah. But at the same time, this is one of the things that I found interesting, right?
Because he brings up, like, more business oriented and stuff like that. And having spent some time in the business world, that's not what good business people do. Like, most executives and, or even, I was listening to, this is an interesting interview, but Sotomayor, Supreme Court Justice Sotomayor was talking about Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, and she was talking about how they radically differ on Their positions on jurisprudence, right? No surprise there. Yeah, she said but He is the first one in in the courthouse That will ask you how your grandmother is doing and he won't just ask how your grandmother is doing He'll remember her name and he knows what cancer she had and is asking about how her treatments are going Yeah Wow And Teddy Roosevelt was famous for this, right? He would actually get to know people deeply and would be able to write them personalized letters for somebody who handled his luggage for like five minutes. But the point is, getting deeper relationships and being able to, like, that's actually a skill of a good leader is somebody who's able to actually get below just skin deep and actually make human connections with people.
I think that's something that, I just think it's counterintuitive to this. It might still only be ankle deep or knee deep. Maybe it's not, you know, heart deep. Yeah, um, but I think there is a Yeah, it kind of that idiosyncrasy even with men that they think they want to keep things professional Right and so like don't wade into the emotional things, but then there's also this aspect of like well especially these occupations like business and even health care that are more people interactive. You can't have a professionally satisfying person-to-person encounter unless you wade into some of that. So it's kind of like this tug of war, because professionalism and business isn't really associated with those kinds of conversations, and yet you kind of have to have them to have a good professional encounter.
You know? Yeah. But, I mean, even just, like, I was talking to Olivia, you know, and she was talking about this person, I'll keep this person nameless, and she was talking, Olivia was talking about, like, how do I approach this person about this thing I see in their life? And I was like, you just need to be careful.
Because if you're going to wade into that, you need to be wholeheartedly ready to deal with all the conversation, all the emotional commitment that that's going to take to follow through of what it means to actually be a friend. And I think that's one of the things that the question of friendship and costliness of friendship. I remember reading a statistic one time and it was saying by the time someone hits, I think it was age 70 or 75, on average they only have five people they really talk to. Five people they really talk to you like in like not just like drive-thru the drive-thru, but like actually interact with And when they asked all these elderly people why that was the case the interviewer found out that it was because it cost time Hmm to be in those friendships and the friendships that they'd still had remaining They really wanted to invest in those friendships.
I thought I Wow, that's incredible, you know, that this is just the average thing. Now, I wonder what that's going to look like when 75, when our generation turns 75. I hate to think. Is it going to be one person, no people? Yeah. I mean, I go into nursing homes and I see it now how lonely some people are. Oh, yeah.
Well, I do think he's right in saying John Wayne is wrong when he says real men do not need other people and he brings up some Bible to support that. I love when he brings up Bible. And what's he bring up there? Yeah, he talks about Genesis 2.18. It is not good that man should be alone. I will make a helper fit for him. And obviously in context that helper is Eve, but I think he correctly observes that God is making an ontological argument. We are relational beings. We're not made to live in a vacuum. We need other people.
Yeah, the kids and I were watching a little YouTube video on prisons that El Chapo has broken out of and the one he's in now, I don't know what it's called that he's in now, but apparently a whole bunch of prison guards from this prison will complain about the prison, not because of like the food they eat, not because of anything like that, but because the prisoners are kept in solitary confinement for 24 hours a day.
And it's built in such a way, because of how dangerous these criminals are, that they're not, like everything is soundproof. So, they're not allowed to be able to hear, even hear somebody next door. So, all the interaction is sterile. And I mean, part of this, you're sitting there going, a lot of these guys have murdered, you know, 65 people and stuff like that, or hundreds of people.
And so, there's a reason they're in this position. Now, biblically, you know, we're talking about, if he has to do this, you know, we can have the, I guess we can have the capital punishment conversation later. But the point is, the severe mental I don't wanna, the words I'm trying to find here. Yeah, it's like suffocating. Yeah, it's almost inhumane to do this. Like, I think that's actually cruel and unusual punishment because we're made for relationships. We didn't talk about this in the discipline of fatherhood, but I remember listening to a lecturer one time and the lecturer was talking about the necessity for their, for fathers to actually physically interact with their sons.
And it's something, you know, 75% of statistics are made up on the spot. But it was something like- I think it's 73.7 actually. It was something like, you know, before a child is five, they're on average touched by their fathers, you know, high five, you know, noogie on their head, you know, pat on the back, hug, whatever, you know. Genuine, good physical affection, 10 times on average, something like that for when a kid is five. By the time they're 13, it's one or two times a day. Okay, wow.
And it's just that, you know, like, even that physical interaction decreases for men as it continues on. And the person was just saying, like, this has legitimate, like, effects on boys in our society that, like, you know, all right, you're a man now, you know, and you stop interacting with your son. in ways where you can give them a hug or just put your arm around their shoulder or something like that. As they get older, you feel like, okay, they're like, so you just, father's physically distancing themselves from boys. To a certain extent, that's understandable, but it's kind of like, we're relational beings, you know, like.
At the very least it happens time-wise. Exactly. Which we talked about in the last chapter, but. Yeah. And I love this, you know, again talking about, I love when he brings this Bible. Who's the best proof to show that we need friends? Jonathan and David, or are you talking about Christ? Christ, yeah. Right, no longer do I call you servants, but your friends.
Great. John 15. Yeah, what a beautiful picture. Yeah. He calls us friends. Yeah. And he surrounded himself with friends. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think of his, you know, where did you see him with his friends? Like he brought them, I think it was the inner three he talks about, he brought them, you know, to the garden of Gethsemane. And I think it's the ultimate.
You know, you have all these these this wonderful exchange that happened on the cross where he was became poor for our sakes that we might become rich and You know one of those I think is he was abandoned that we would have a family right that he would put us in the family of God because you know, all forsook him and fled. Even the inner three forsook him and fled. Peter denied him, right? His own heavenly father turned his face from him.
And he now turns around and offers us fellowship, not only with him, but with each other. And so like you see Christ developing these close friends and having these 12 and having these three that he's, you know, he's out on a boat with, he's out fishing with them. He's out eating a meal with them. He's dealing with their messiness and their sin.
And then he forsakes that, even that which he had in his atonement for us. I hadn't thought about that before. That's interesting. And then it's after he comes back, when he's risen from the dead. I love that passage, you know, didn't our hearts burn within us when he opened the scriptures? And it was like, that was Jesus. Oh, it was like that was our buddy. We got to go tell the apostles.
And he's made known after his resurrection in the breaking of bread, right? Like so many times and even when it's, I think it's Peter and John who are out fishing and he makes a breakfast for them on the shore. He's eating with them. He's fellowshipping. He's restored to that fellowship that he loves with his disciples, his friends.
Could you imagine? Like, you know that Peter's excited, right? Because he jumps out of the boat and he's still all clothed, you know, and I love the fact that John mentions again, and the boat caught up to them. But so, it was like, you could just stay in the boat, you know, but he was just so excited. But I wonder once he got to the shore, if like he had flashbacks, like, oh yeah, I remember when I betrayed him.
You know, I wonder if Jesus was just looking kind of by me or was he actually looking at me, you know? But Jesus is still kind to him and restores that friendship back to him. And then he gets into, well, actually before we do that, right before A Great Friendship, he talks about how we, as Christians, continue to cultivate friendships. What is the God-ordained place where we should be cultivating friendships?
That's the body of Christ. Yeah. It's the church. Yeah. You know, I was bragging to Micah about you. Oh dear, hope it wasn't too bad. Oh, it was all bad things, don't worry. But I was just like, Micah, the Lord brought me a great friend. Simon moved up here and it was just like, man, this is awesome. So at one point, you were just picking up. people's garbage or something like that. I was like, you see that dude? Like, that's awesome, man. I was like, that's, so I was bragging on you to Micah, you know, and just like, just like, that's my friend, you know?
Well, it was true, you know, but the point is like, we come to church to encourage each other, to spur one another on in love and good deeds, to exhort one another. The days are evil, you know, the day is approaching. So we don't want to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. Yeah, and I really appreciate that.
He like lays out the biblical mandate like this isn't just some psycho gurus good idea for like happiness in this world. This is a biblical mandate. He says the warning about not neglecting to meet together as is the habit of some was and is a call to relationship and friendships with other believers. Friendship is not optional.
Yeah. like, we have a biblical command to do this, and how do we do that with joy and faithfulness? Jared Yeah, yeah. And then in the next part, he gets into Jonathan and David, right? And I think we, I'd like to start by addressing the elephant in the room, right? There's, our culture is so enamored with the homoerotic that so many interpreters have come to this passage. and said, oh, you know, see, look, Jonathan and David were gay.
And it's just kind of like, what a sad state we are in the West that people have lost friendship. The culture we live in is in a place where, in the Greek, there's the word philia for friend and eros for like erotic. And we've so let eros consume the Western mind, that friendship is like almost non-existent or not possible. – Arrow supersedes friendship. – Exactly. – It comes before friendship. – Exactly. – Most of the time. – Yeah.
And so, like, I was just saying, like, what a sad world is, you know, we, I mentioned right across the street from us were the Mortens in Beaver Falls, and Nathan and their son Peter were great friends. I mean, From the age two to the age of four and a half or sorry five and a half something like that, you know, they These boys were together every single day, you know riding their big wheels to riding their you know, two-wheeled bikes I mean they learned together they crashed together. They climbed trees together. They played at the park together and you know, they got into all sorts of mischief together.
Sabbath afternoons, if Nathan said, hey, Peter's outside, can I go? He literally is at the front window waiting for Peter to come home from church so they could go over there and play Legos and hang out, or Peter would end up over at our house, you know. And at one point, like, we were walking, the Mortons and us, the two families were walking to College Hill RP, so we had joint worship services. And so, we were walking to church one night for Sabbath evening worship and Nathan and Peter were just walking down the road and they were just holding hands. And I was like, that's awesome. Like, that's Jonathan and David.
Like get all of our stupid homoerotic stuff out like there's still place in a boy's heart For his best friend. Mm-hmm, you know like And so I just want to like strip this story out of its Western The the diluted mind of Western culture and and and this is where I love that and Archon Hughes brought up this story because it's such a powerful image of Friendship that I want to steal it back from the rainbows. Yeah, like no, no, no, no, no, no that I Connection that you often feel with other dudes that's supposed to be friendship.
Yeah, and it's been twisted. Mm-hmm so so he Let's just walk through the book or you know, we don't have to go paragraph by paragraph through this But let's just kind of talk about that friendship between Jonathan and David I'll let you tell me the story Yeah, yeah, so obviously jonathan's somersault set in a Split country where you have an israelite king, but the philistines have a lot of the territory and there's kind of this uh, What should I say? apathetic subservience that israel has got going on where they're just kind of sitting where they're sitting and not taking the philistine land and um jonathan's like no this isn't right like this is god's land right he gave it to us as an inheritance we're gonna go and and and get this back he says you know come let us go over to the garrison of these uncircumcised it may be that the lord will work for us for nothing can hinder the lord from saving by many or by few so archon hughes kind of brings out this like manliness and this gutsiness let's just go and you know faithfulness to uh do what do what god had commanded him to do and um how that was one of the mutual things that drew Jonathan and David together because, you know, Jonathan saw David slay Goliath when no one else was going to do it and everyone else was chickening out, you know, and it's like, whoa, like there's something different about that guy. You know, he's on fire for doing the hard thing and following the Lord, even, you know, if it means risking your life and being committed to God, like, that's what I'm about.
Like, no one else is about that. Let's, you know, let's be friends. And so that's kind of, He talks about the mutuality. It kind of reminded me of what Joshua and Caleb's relationship must have been like. Because here, Jonathan and David are living in an era where, like I said, it's kind of just this apathetic, okay, the Philistines are here, whatever, we'll live with it. And Joshua and Caleb, like, oh, look, there's a land, God's promise says, flowing with milk and honey. Like, yeah, there's giants in the land, let's go get it.
And everyone's like, eh. like no and you know 40 years later they're still like let's go get it and then when josh was like we're going through now he's like would you go up and get this mountain like if you don't i will and he's like 80 years old you know and just like how i don't know like friendships in that kind of an environment are such an encouragement and such a means that god uses to spur each other on when no one else is taking the reins and doing the hard thing. And I think, honestly, we're not in too much different of a situation. We're surrounded by apathetic men who don't really exemplify what manly manliness is like. who are satisfied with these shallow relationships and aren't pursuing anything different. When you find someone who's like going against the tide and like fighting for purity and fighting to be a good husband and fighting to be a good father, it's like, yes, let's go, let's do it.
Yeah, exactly. So anyway, yeah, that's probably a little off topic there. No, I think you're exactly right. At last Jonathan had found someone whose heart was in tune with his, a friend. Yeah. No, man, I got that triple underlined. That's exactly right, right? He found someone that was like, yeah, let's go get those uncircumcised Philistines. Let's do it, you know? I think you're spot on. And I think that's where, you know, when the, you know, the heart is on the same beat. That there's... It was a man whose heart beat with his. Exactly.
Yeah, uh, and so, uh, he kind of gives Different types or parts of their friendship in the story here. Uh, What what does he bring about with friendships mutuality? Yeah, I think like he just First put in my own words like jonathan and david's heart was on mission for the same thing. Um he uh Yeah, he talks about like a heart that beat with his, how they ascended to the same authority, they knew the same God, they went the same way, they longed for the same things, and how that's the basis for true Christian friendship.
Because, you know, I've experienced some of the closest Christian friends that I've had, we're way different, you know, ironically different in some ways, we joke about it, but there's this There's this element to being on mission together for the same thing, where it doesn't matter if you're 180 to me on this one personality thing.
You're on fire for the same thing that I'm on fire for, and we can burn even hotter if we're doing this together. Yeah, so I think he's getting at like, okay, boil things down at the end of the day. What makes you tick? What you are on fire for? What you are on mission for? Can you hold that in common with someone else?
Because that's the fruit. That's the makings of a really deep friendship there. Yeah. Yeah, awesome. Yeah, I think that shared passion for something greater than oneself, you know, is what's putting them together, Jonathan and David there. I like that he pointed out 1 Sam 18 1, the soul of Jonathan bound itself to the soul of David. You know, this wasn't just a passing thing, but this was, you know, my heart is knit to this other guy. And so he actually brings that up, right? The soul knit by love.
In the last part there he says, he really did love him as himself and in doing so was loving his neighbor as himself and thus was fulfilling the law of God. You know, like, this is one of those things that, like, again, we're so, we hear the word love, and we think of two men, and we think, oh, homoerotic stuff, and things like that, and like, no, hold on. Jesus has called me to love the Lord with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength, and to love my neighbor as myself.
So, if I am deeply loving people, I should be able to have friends in the church, men in the church, men in the community who I deeply love, who they're in trouble. whether it's by providence or something dumb that they've done. And my heart aches for them. You know, the Lord's still developing a lot of friendships for me and with men in the church, you know, I think of going to coffee with Jay and going to coffee with Mark and, you know, Bob McElhaney and I had a different type of friendship. I mean, if, you know, Carly down the road, you know, there's different men in the church that we have different types of friendships with.
And the point is that, like, we're meant to be a band of brothers. Right. And what connects us is a love for one another. And it shouldn't just be this shallow, like, hi. Yeah. Well, and I mean, it's the mark of the Christian, right? Like Jesus said, I think it's John 13, like, by this they will know that you are my disciples, that you love one another. And who's he talking to? A bunch of dudes. Good point. Yeah.
Like you were supposed to have this filial love for one another that is so evident that even the world can be like, yeah, those dudes love each other. And there's an element to where that should be even be true between brother and sister in Christ in the church. Yes, like as a brother, I love you, and you know, it's detailed out in the first and second Timothy, like what does that look like? Yeah, but it looks like something. Yeah, like there's not, it's not like that. There's nothing there.
Yeah, I love that he actually brought that up later, you know, Paul and Timothy's relationship. Yeah, like even, and again, this is where I see myself kind of like Pastor Snap and Timothy type relationship, you know, Even though there's a generational gap between them. And we know that's the case, right? Because let no one despise you because of your youth. So he's a young dude. versus Paul who's a learned scholar and has been around the block, you know? But you can't read through the pastoral epistles and especially, or sorry, you can't read through the Pauline epistles and especially the pastoral epistles without getting a sense of like, Paul deeply cared about Timothy.
And when they were together and they were writing letters together, that, like, they're a team. Pete Right. Jared Mike and I were actually talking about this. I really wonder if we've done the church a disservice in the whole idea of a solo pastor. in a man, one man going and being in a church when the biblical model, when Jesus sends them out as two by two, and you look at Paul's life, and he's always surrounded by other guys. You know, it's rare that they're alone. Right. I didn't think about that.
And so, I mean, almost every letter of Paul is him and someone else. Right. Paul and Silvanus. Yeah, yeah, so 1 Corinthians, yeah, Paul and Silvanus, or Ephesians, Paul, Timothy, and, oh... I'm blanking on it. Oh, man. Where's my Bible? I need a Bible. I have like 16 right here. Who can get their first sword drills? You guys never did those, did you? I don't think so.
Somebody else told me about it. Nick Bloom told me about that. Ephesians? I'm just seeing Paul, at least at the beginning. Maybe it's at the end. Oh, it might be. Maybe I'm thinking about Philippians. I know Thessalonians is written by three authors. There we go. That's what I was preaching through, was 1 Thessalonians. Yeah, Paul, Silas, and Timothy. It was 1 Thessalonians I was thinking about. Yeah. Silas, Silvanus, yeah. So yeah, the relationship between Paul and Timothy is clear.
But that also means, underneath friendship's love is another aspect that we see in the Jonathan-David relationship. What's that one? He talks about friendship's commitment and brings up the covenant that Jonathan and David make with each other. Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as his own soul and Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was on him and gave it to David and his armor and even a sword and his bow and his belt. What is the symbolism going on there? You're going to be king, dude, and I'm behind you. He divests himself of all his royal regalia, even the sword. and gives it to David. I mean, that had to be a humbling experience for David and a deeply moving experience, or sorry, a humbling experience for Jonathan and a deeply moving experience for David.
I'm kind of like, what? Yeah. And I think too, like, it's always struck me powerfully that Jonathan's the king's son. airship goes to him, right? He's the dude in line and yet he's like, no, the whole way he's like, no, this is the Lord's anointed and he knew and he was willing to submit ultimately to God in that, which is, I mean, just strikes me because it's like, you would think that it's like the stepkid brat, you know, coming in and... Yeah, well, I mean, Saul treats him that way. Yeah, like stomping on the toes of like the son and he's like, no, like you're a brother, like you're a your friend, you know, your life is my life.
Yeah, that commitment, you know, I just wonder sometimes, you know, like if we took, you know, this just came to me, but I was thinking about when we take our vows of church membership and we ask the congregation, you know, essentially if they're going to support and keep accountable. Right. these people who are coming into membership, if the men actually took this seriously with the young men, the young fathers who are coming into the congregation and were actually determined, no, I am actually going to pray for you. I'm going to ask you, like, hey, you want to come to men's study? Like, what can I do to foster this friendship? I just wonder, you know, if we took it seriously to bring guys under our wing. And I'm thinking, I mean, both of us are younger men, but some of the older men. you know, the Lord blessed me greatly. I mentioned some of the men I was friends with. Some of the other men I was really close friends with were elders in the church. I think specifically of one man, David Schaefer, or sorry, John Schaefer, David the son. But John Schaefer, MIT grad, and you know, Carnegie Mellon graduate student type guy. Just an absolute genius, you know, The John Smith? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Actually, there's a book up there on my shelf, way up at the top, The Absence of Mind by Marilynne Robinson. Her thesis kind of falls apart now. Ten years ago, it was, I thought, pretty intact. But I wrestled through that book for like a whole week. I mean, just trying to understand it.
I give it to him on a Sunday after church. He gives it back to me on Sunday evening worship, and he goes, oh, that was a great book. Just devoured it. Yeah, it just like literally, he was like, and then like after worship, we're talking about it. And it's clear he didn't just like, you know, read the introduction. Like he actually read the book and had understood its concepts. And so, I mean, this is the guy that if you wanted to talk astrophysics, That's what he studied in you know if you wanted you could talk to him about when he was in college and how he made his own x-ray machine when he was at MIT because He needed it for an experiment. He was doing and they didn't have one.
Yeah, so just make it, you know But then you could talk to him about CS Lewis. Mm-hmm And he could talk to him about ancient literature and he would always be bringing up, well, Josephus said that in Sunday's college class, you're like, how did you have time to read Josephus? You know? You're making x-ray machines. Come on, man. Exactly. But John Schaeffer... like always spent time to talk with me.
And when we were having our kids, you know, how are you guys doing, and trying to actually invest in our lives, and invested financially in us. I mean, they're with the Lord now, so, you know, I'm gonna let their right hand know what their left hand was doing, but there were times when we were a young married couple that this older man who was a friend of mine, He just, after church, he knew that we were having a hard time, and he'd just shake my hand, and he'd smile at me, and he'd turn away, and there was $300 in my hand. That guy just bought us groceries for the month. Well, more than a month then, because it was just two or three of us, but it was just Who does that? It's because he saw me as a brother and a son in Christ. And so he developed that friendship. Always, how are the kids doing? And not just in a cursory way, but it meant that it took time. I mean, it happened, this friendship developed because he stayed after church and we would drink coffee together after church for hours.
And then at evening worship, we would stick around in the Edgar room and we would talk for hours, you know? It'd be like 9.30 at night, I'd have to wake up at four in the morning. Mr. Shaver, I gotta go. Yeah, I think a nuance of this commitment might be, better put, intentionality. Like, these friendships don't just pop up overnight, right? Jonathan and Davidson just pop up overnight. Like this is something that takes commitment, intentionality. Like I'm going to go talk to that person. I'm going to spend time with that person. Right? Cause like you don't just abracadabra have a best friend in one day, right? Like best friends are, you know, sometimes it can happen very quickly, but it's, it's the product of this commitment. It's a product of being intentional.
Like I'm going to have this conversation, I'm going to have hard questions. I'm going to have, you know, um, and that frankly, I mean, I think half the reason why, there's such a paucity of male good friendships is because we're lazy. It takes emotional, intellectual, conversational work to have this kind of commitment and intentionality that is the makings of a good, deep friendship. Sometimes it takes spending gas money at $4.50 a gallon and an hour and a half drive home and back just to have a conversation with someone.
Well, yeah. Thank you for your commitment. No, I really do appreciate our friendship and how the Lord has been building up our friendship. Yeah, me too. Yeah, I really like also, after this, he talks about Ann Sullivan, right before Friendship's Loyalty. You want to read the last full paragraph Yeah.
The deepest of friendships have in common this desire to make the other person royalty. Each works for and rejoices in the other's elevation and achievements. There are no hooks in such friendships, no desire to manipulate or control, no jealousy or exclusiveness, simply a desire for the best for the other.
I'm going to botch this name. It's Russian. Everybody does. Don't worry. Feodor Dostoevsky had the idea when he wrote, to love a person means to see him as God intended him to be. I hope that was the paragraph you wanted. Yeah, that was it. That's it. I have a couple lines double underlined in that one and I have it starred on the side.
So yeah, you know, yeah, that's uh, I think that's what it's getting at with actually loving the other person. It's like I want what's best for Simon. Hmm, you know, I want what's best for this man's family. Mm-hmm. I want what's best for this person's Children. Mm-hmm. And so, you know Jonathan wasn't sitting there thinking I want what's best for me. Mm-hmm Yeah, there's there's a man of God, right?
I want I want to love him and I want him to excel right now. I must decrease and he must increase Yeah, you know Yeah, I think I might have shared this before but part of her marriage counseling was had us go word by word through 1st Corinthians 13 of every single minute characteristic of love that you could ever pull from that passage and what does that mean? What does it mean for love to not boast, right? Like all these things and Man, I got to the end of that just absolutely wrecked because like, okay, that's what love is. And it was in the context of premarital counseling. But 1 Corinthians 13 isn't saying, now husbands, love your wives in this way and forget about everyone else.
It's saying love. Like, this is how I should be loving my brother, my sister, my father, right? This is how I should be loving everyone. And I think it's easy It was easy for me to be like, oh yeah, I know I'm supposed to love Natalie that way. Like, yeah, I lay my life down for her. I enjoy the love of Christ. And like, yada, yada, yada. You hear it all the time, Ephesians 5. And it's true. And it's especially true in that relationship.
And God forbid that you should throw that out the window in that relationship. But man, we're living a gross inconsistency if it's relegated to that relationship and we forget to apply that same love, though in a different way. still the same Christ-like love that I'm supposed to show to everyone. And I think that was just mind-blowing to me because it's like, whoa, wow, okay, I am falling short in like every single relationship God has ever given me. Not just this future relationship of being married.
Jared Yeah. Does that type of love characterize how we treat people in the church? 1 Corinthians 13 is following 1 Corinthians 11, the body metaphor, right? And so, how do we love one another instead of using the gifts that God has given us to be divisive. How are we actually caring for and loving each other? Just that selflessness of love. Love does not look after its own. But it's also costly. He brings up another way in which love is costly. What's that next area?
Yeah, he talks about loyalty. Jonathan maintained a fierce loyalty to David. And yeah, again, like Jonathan's kind of walking this tightrope here because he's got this anger prone father who hates his best friend and wants him dead and his best friend is destined for the throne by God and Jonathan loves him, but he's also trying to honor his dad and yet he remains loyal and again, like Jonathan also could have been like, no, this is my shindig. Like I'm supposed to be the rightful heir to the throne. Um, but he remains loyal, like knowing that God had put David on the throne and, and is loyal to that. Even when his dad calls him on the carpet for it, he stays loyal to David. That's costly. Any loyalty is costly because you're saying no to other things because you've set your heart to love someone or something.
I loved his quote from Blaise Pascal, kind of sobering. Blaise Pascal says I set this down as a fact. that if all men knew what each other said of the other, there would not be four friends in the world." Oof. Man, yeah. What kind of- May it never be so in the church. Yeah. Yeah.
You know, gossip and slander and backbiting. I'm convinced that, you know, Ephesians chapter four, you know, let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but only what's good for necessary edification that you might impart grace to those who hear. Right. we as spirit-filled Christians, when you walk out the door, I hope that I don't go and tell Olivia, oh man, that dude's such a brood. I don't know why. I don't know why I'm friends with that guy, which I don't, by the way.
That's a pretty smooth off your lips there, Brian. You said that before. No! But just that reality that, you know, we friends to the face? Yeah. Are we actually friends, you know, for real? Yeah. That's probably yours. Okay. Phones, phones, phones. All right. Well, the last one that I think we'll cover tonight his friend's encouragement. What did you pick up from that part? Yeah, I remember reading this passage that he quotes in the King James and it's great. He talks about how, where is this? Is it David is discouraged, I think.
And at least the King James says, like, Jonathan strengthened his hand in God. Or is it David that strengthened his hand in God? I think it's Jonathan that strengthened David's hand in God. Oh, where is it? Yeah. Jonathan Saul's son rose and went to David at Horesh and strengthened his hand in God.
I'm just underlining that in my old King James Bible. Yeah, that it's not just like, hey, how are you doing? Like, no, like, let me point you to God. Like, let me encourage you where it really matters. Yeah. Like, yeah, you're, you're in a rough, rough time right now. And he doesn't go encourage him like with numbers of troops or like with the outlay of the land, like, oh, the weather tomorrow is going to be in your favor. And he's like, no, like pointed him to the one who gave him life and to God and, um, Yeah, like where is that encouragement and true biblical friendship in my life?
I wanted to read something from, this is Alan Jacobs' biography of C.S. Lewis. And I remember reading this when I was at Geneva. And I just wanted to read this paragraph. When the lectures and tutorials were finished for the day and when it was time to take a break from the writings, Lewis habitually turned to one of the greatest of his life's pleasures, time with his friends.
As we have already heard him say, my happiest hours are spent with three or four old friends in old clothes, tramping together and putting up in small pubs, or else sitting up till the small hours in someone's college room, talking nonsense, poetry, theology, metaphysics over beer, tea, and pipes. There's no sound I like better than adult male laughter. This is, you know, our grandparents' generation. The men had friendships.
You mind if I just pray that the Lord would bring this back to the church? Father, we live in a world that is so isolated. Everybody seems to be living in their own silos. Busy in their own little castles. worried about what they are doing, how they're building their little kingdoms. Lord, our culture seems to be losing its sense of community. Men have lost a sense of friendship.
God, I thank you for Simon. I thank you for the friendship you've given me with him. Lord, and I thank you for the way in which you are building your church and you are building friendships. Father, we pray that you would fill your church with men whose heart would be knit to one another, who would love as Christ loved, sacrificially, committedly, loyally, trusting. Lord, we pray that indeed we would have true godly friendships for your glory, in Jesus's name, amen.