The Discipline of Marriage 3.1

Oh, I got something fun in the mail. When we went to the G3 conference, they gave us a little coupon. And so it's from trackedworld.com. Oh, are these tracks? Yep. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. And so we were at Walmart, or I was at Walmart the other day, and there was just a little track sitting right next to the register. And I was like, oh, that reminds me. I have this coupon for getting some money off tracks. And so it's pretty normal when I go to Walmart. When I go someplace like, you know, a restaurant or something like that, I'll try to leave a pretty generous tip and write something like Romans 6, 23, you know, God's grace is free to those who believe. Yeah. Try to write something. I hope you have a great day. Yeah. I just thought, man, I wish I could really should just like leave a track with a good tip, you know, but so anyways, that's awesome. Yeah, so those came in the mail.
From the G3 summit or whatever it was? Well, we went to the G3 seminar. You can just throw them over there somewhere. We went to the G3 seminar and they have like a whole convention type thing that goes with it where you can buy books and all sorts of Christian apparel.
It's kind of like the Christian bazaar, you know, or whatever. But sometimes, I mean, like actually, I don't know if you remember a few months ago when I was preaching through the Ten Commandments, I handed out a whole bunch of booklets written by Joseph Piper on what is the Lord's Day or how to keep the Sabbath, something like that. I don't think we were there for that, Lord's Day.
Okay. Interestingly enough. Well, anyways, I got, when you go to these conferences, often they'll have a steep discount of like 30% off or something like that. So I got those for a couple bucks a piece. And so I was able to, it's kind of like, oh, well, I can get those and hand them out to everybody in the congregation. This is something that I think would be very helpful to people in church. I'm always about handing out as much literature as I can at church. Mark Spence, when he came and did the evangelism seminar at our church, He was talking about how when you give someone a tract, that tract continues to live on.
Yeah, someone might throw it away, whatever, but he was actually, his initial exposure to the gospel was somebody who just threw a tract on the ground, you know, just didn't care about it. And he picked it up and was like, oh, what is this? Huh. And so he was saying, somebody might not initially think of it, but that tract might live in their house and it might be them, their children, their grandchildren. It might be after they die, someone picks us up and, whoa, what is this? And so he was just, they're big on tracts and that's fine.
I don't think tracts are the only way to evangelize. I don't think they should be the only way to evangelize. But I think the same thing about even even if I give someone a piece of Christian literature in the church and they never read it, they might not read it that week, but maybe in 10 years they'll be bored one day and be, oh, oh yeah, Brian gave that, or I don't even know where I got that.
And then hopefully at least that literature is there, even if it just means they're exposed that, oh, I've seen that author before. I think pastor gave us books by him. Maybe I can, you know, and, and, kind of give some, here are people you should be listening to. Yeah, I remember handing out tracks at Mizzou and I always try to put my number on the back of it. Oh, that's a good idea. Just to just in case, just first name, number, and no one ever so far has reached out, but you know, I was just like, you know, if you ever or finding yourself reading this and have questions, you know, text me. Yeah. Yeah.
I think I was talking to some of the elders at the Dallas congregation. They said they get tracks from, I think they said the Trinity Bible Society. And on the back of it, they're able to actually stamp their church's website and address and stuff like that. So trying to, you know, hey, here's a solid church to go to after you read this track. Yeah. you know, who knows how effective these sayings are, who knows how effective any evangelism is, but it's just kind of like, okay.
I feel like you don't see the fruit of it like right up front, but you hear stories like, oh, I saw this on the ground, you know, or. There's multiple times the Lord works. Exactly. Yeah. And, uh, again, Mark Spence, when he was at the church, it was just really helpful.
You know, he, he quoted Spurgeon and he was just saying, you know, uh, you know, Spurgeon was, had this famous saying where he would talk about, he was saying, you know, we can quibble over methodology and methods of, of evangelism, but men, we need to do something, do something, do something, do something. You know, don't just sit on your laurels and argue about the best way to evangelize. How about you just go out there and start telling people about Jesus? Yeah, because I mean myself included, but every time evangelism comes up among Christians, it's like, Oh, I wish I did more of that.
Oh, I wish I did more of that. And myself included. And it's like, well, let's quit wishing we did more of it. Let's go do something. Well, it's true, but it's, I mean, this is one of the things I was talking about on Sabbath morning, you know, the ladies have been praying. I mean, literally both of our wives are at the women's prayer meeting right now.
And I was sitting there. Man, I was not very happy on Saturday. I was coming back from Dallas and sat down on the plane and I was just reading a book, a book by Paul Tripp here called Dangerous Calling, which I might recommend to you. It's a wonderful book. But anyways, I was perfectly content. reading that book, praying, maybe thinking about my sermon a little bit.
And this lady, this Roman Catholic lady sits down next to me and talks to me for two and a half hours. So everything from her family who's having problems to political things in the world to, oh, I listen to this Roman Catholic priest all the time. And he's talking about, well, you're able to see that people get better and better and better. And I was like, wow, that's really interesting. I wonder how he deals with Romans chapter three. So, like, you know, just kind of like, all right, Lord.
You know, so I tried to, I wrestle with that, you know, because I'm sitting there like, I'm just really tired. I've gotten like four hours of sleep. And it's kind of like, okay, do I ignore this woman next to me who wants to talk? Or do I, and sometimes it's just uncomfortable, you know, because you're like, okay, am I really going to step into this mess? Right. Well, and on an airplane, you can't, you've got more hours with them if the conversation turns sour, you can't change scenes. Yeah, exactly.
But I mean, Olivia still talks, oh, not so much anymore. But for a long period of time, she struck up a conversation with a Mormon woman right next to her. And for months, it was messages on Facebook back and forth. Olivia just, you know, well, what do you guys think about this? And she would come back and say, Well, but the Bible says that, so how do you, and so Olivia was just playing the apologist, you know, just hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, you know.
And so it was just kind of like, funny thing though. We had just come from a funeral and we were on our way to California for my grandfather's funeral. And so it was this season of life where I had done a funeral, I was going to a funeral, and I was going to go preach a funeral. So, I was literally still in my suit and tie. We had all the kids with us, and the Mormon lady was a little bit trepidatious to talk to Olivia because she was worried I was a Jehovah's Witness. So, I was like, oh, even the cults don't like each other.
Well, let's grab my book here. You want to open us up in prayer? Sure. Yeah, let's do it. Our Father God, we just worship you and thank you, Lord, that we can come before your throne of grace and that we can know it is a throne of grace, Lord, and that we can find acceptance there, Lord, not because of what we bring to you, Lord, but because of the grace in which we stand purchased for us by Jesus Christ. We ask, Lord, your blessing over this time, that we would sharpen each other as iron sharpens iron. Lord, that you would grow us up to be complete men of God, fully equipped for every good work. Lord, and that you would use us for growing your kingdom and for the glory of God, this we ask in Jesus' name.
Amen. Amen. All right, well, if this wasn't a convicting chapter, I don't know what is. Yeah. So, I didn't get a chance to ask you this before. How do you feel about leading us through the chapter this time? Yeah. Okay, cool. Works fine. Yep, should be pretty fresh on my mind. Okay.
So he opens up here talking about how he as a minister has officiated several weddings and kind of how it's a glorious moment. And as a Christian minister, he kind of reflects back on the reality that the parable of marriage points to, which I think, I know just personally at my wedding, I think the gospel hit me like a train in a way that I've never understood it before. And so I kind of resonated with that. But then he goes on to talk about this really sweet account of Dr. J. Robertson McQuilkin, I'm assuming, president of Columbia Bible College down in South Carolina, just talking about how he's caring for his wife who has Alzheimer's and how he does it.
He talks about the different reasons he does this. He says he does it because of the integrity for keeping his marriage vows. He does it because of fairness, because she's taking care of him. But he says, duty, however, can be grim and stoic, but there is more. I love Muriel. She's a delight to me.
I just thought of all the reasons we have to be committed, yes, integrity, yes, fairness, right? Yes, duty, yes, obedience, but love. I don't know. saw a similar parallel to our walk with Christ, because I don't know if you've read Jerry Bridges, The Disciplines of Grace. I have not. It sounds like one I should read. Yeah, it's a really good book, but he talked about how our motivation for holiness can sometimes be skewed, where sometimes we obey simply out of duty. We obey simply out of avoiding guilt.
But he talks about like how all of those motivations at the end of the day are cruel taskmasters and how our obedience should be driven by love for Christ. Yeah, amen. Yeah, anyway, so just kind of some reflections on his opening paragraphs. But yeah, I guess what is one of the most poignant examples you've seen in your life of couples' faithfulness to their wedding vows, even like when it comes to like a tough spot, like here he is caring for his wife with Alzheimer's.
You have a few more years under your belt than I do. Not too many. Don't make me out to be an old old man. You know, honestly, I'm blessed that I can honestly say my grandparents, you know, they were married for over 60 years and You know, I saw my grandma walk with my grandpa through some of the most difficult things, I mean, humanly possible. My grandpa was a strong man, but had some serious health issues.
You know, he had a number of different pacemakers and open heart surgeries. I mean, he was a worker. I mean, until he couldn't move anymore, he wanted to work. But at the end of my grandparents' life, I think this is a testimony to my grandmother's love for him and his love for her. you know, my, uh, so this is, this is opposite instead of husbands caring for wives, this is wives caring for their husbands. But, um, my grandmother, when my grandpa, um, he didn't know at the time, but he had COVID and, uh, he was in congestive heart failure. So his, uh, he knew he was, his days were numbered and, um, He wasn't doing well. He was retaining a lot of water and he really really sick and grandma was just Doggedly, you know devoted that she was going to care for him. She was going to watch over him. Hmm and And so, I mean, she did, they were really, this was again, right in the height of COVID.
And so nobody knew, you know, rindesmavir was still experimental treatment. I mean, there weren't any vaccines, there was just nothing. And so, grandma really was trying to nurse him as best she could to keep him out of the hospital. But eventually it got to the point where she couldn't and he went to the hospital.
But in that time period, what we didn't see and what was going on was she actually had COVID as well. But her whole thing was, I gotta take care of grandpa, I gotta take care of my husband. And so now she's on 100% oxygen and struggles with the after effects of COVID pneumonia with her lungs.
And so, But just seeing that faithfulness in their marriage for decade after decade, I mean, it was just like, of course, it's grandma and grandpa. No, I mean, obviously they sinned and there was difficulties in their marriage and things like this, but. just grandpa's faithfulness that, you know, he just did so many little things to show grandma all the time that he loved her, you know, whether that was making her tea every morning, or whether that was praying with her every morning, or, I mean, there's just no doubt that he was always going to be there for her. And so it might sound a little bit sentimental and sappy, you know, talking about my own grandma and grandpa, but I count it as a blessing. That picture was in front of me my whole life. The rest of my family, not so much. But they were like foundation, like their marriage was like a rock that we could look to and go, that's who we want to be like, all of us grandkids and kids. Yeah. What about you? Yeah. Yeah.
I'm not thinking of anything off the top of my head where we had a care situation like that, but while we're on the subject of grandparents, I think my dad's parents are similar in that way where they've really set, well, like you said, like lots of, lots of sin and lots of hiccups along the way, but they've set a precedent for biblical a biblical model of a family.
And every family reunion, they hammer that in. If you get married, you get married seriously. You don't mess around. You have children, you teach them the word, you stay married. Divorce is not an option, right? And before I was getting married, I got married last summer and we were up visiting my grandparents in, I think, spring break. And I was asking my grandfather, Granddaddy, what do you like about marriage?"
He's like, I just love your grandma. I just enjoy being with her. I just enjoy talking with her. I enjoy learning about her. And here he's been married, I don't know, 60 some years. And he just says, I just can't get over her. He's like, it's just fun. I was like, that is awesome to like never have lost that interest in your spouse, even after that long and just continuing to want to learn more about her, you know? And so that was just cool and really sweet because I think I've definitely seen a lot of older couples very jaded and very like, well, hope you enjoy it, have fun, get through it.
Kind of like this, we're in the trenches mentality. It's like, no, these are old saints loving each other and delighting in it. Yeah, I really enjoyed that. In this chapter, he does a really good job of kind of really pointing out, you know, that this love is, yes, it's doggedly determined, but it's a rich blessing as well. You know, it's not just something you get through. Yeah, there's spiritual sweat. but it's an enjoyment. So there's real love. And so speaking of the real love, he really drives in on one specific passage where we as men get our kind of, if there's any one passage in the Bible we need to lean into as husbands, which one does he say it is?
Sorry, I just took over control. Oh, no, you're good. No, it's a back and forth. Ephesians 5 is kind of where he points us to, 31 and 32, talking about Christ and the church. Let's see. I don't know if he's got the full passage here. Well, you can just pull it out in your Bible. Yeah.
Just turn it up there. The microphone's getting in the way. I thought it was funny last time after we were done, like the second we were done recording, you were like, get this out of my face. Was I like that? Yeah. It's a little claustrophobic right there. I'm not used to it, to be quite honest. Let's see, he's talking about 522.
Wives, submit to your own husbands as to the Lord, for the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church, and he is the savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. And then moving on to our call as husbands. Husbands, love your wives just as Christ also loved the church and gave himself for her that he might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word. he might present her to himself a glorious church not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing but that she should be holy and without blemish so husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies he who loves his wife loves himself and it talks about we are members of his body of his flesh and of his bones for this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother and be joined to his wife and the two shall become one flesh this is a great mystery but i speak concerning christ and the church yeah so um kind of the hallmark uh passage that we turn to for seeing marriage as the paradigm the parable for the the real marriage going on between christ and his bride and kind of building off that um uh Archant Hughes kind of breaks us down into three disciplines.
So he's got sacrificial love, sanctifying love, and self-love. And he just kind of walks us through that, starting with sacrificial love. And I underline just his opening line, at least in my version. He says, the opening charge in Ephesians 5 is a clear call to radical, sacrificial love. Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for it.
Because I think, Like, I don't know, I think he's he's honest about it, that it's like radical, you know, like you don't see this and there's not a lot of peer pressure to do it from the world. And it's not an easy love. It's a sacrificial love. Yeah.
Yeah, I really liked the fact that, you know, one of the things that kind of in the evangelical world, what I think happens sometimes is people will come to this passage and they'll specifically run to Christ's death. And while that's true, You know, obviously it's, you know, love knows no more than this, you know, someone would lay down his life for his friend.
So that's like the penultimate of Jesus proving his love for his disciples, for his friends, for his bride. But yet Jesus also lived. Right. And Jesus is also still now caring for his bride. And so I'm, I, there are some times that I've heard this passage and it's so narrows in on just the cross that it misses the overall sacrificialness of, I think, like, of Philippians 2 with Jesus' humiliation. Yeah. And, you know, hold on, Jesus humbled himself Yeah. You know, that was part of his sacrificial love. He gave up all the riches of heaven. Yeah. To come in the likeness of man. Yeah. Yeah, we were reading in family worship the other day, and we just just finished up the Gospel of John.
And the last chapter there, Christ appears to them the third time, I think. And they're fishing, and he's like, hey, you know, come to shore or cast your net on the other side. And they haul in this big catch and they're like, oh, it's the Lord. And even there, he's serving them breakfast. Yeah. He's the exalted risen Lord and he's serving them breakfast. Yeah. And he has it ready and hot for them. So did you make breakfast the next morning? Oh, I make breakfast every morning, actually. Wow. Man, you put me to shame, Simon. Yeah. Wow. You make breakfast for Natalie every day? Yeah. Except for Saturday. Usually we make it together. Okay. Yeah. Good stuff, man. That's a great idea.
I'm much more the morning person than she is. And so the first, for the first five minutes I'm groggy, but then I'm up and that's irritating to her. She needs about 20 more minutes. So it works out well. I kind of am up and active and like ready to go and she's still waking up. And so it, it, uh, it works out well. Thank God's gifted us differently.
Yeah, we wake up at different times. So I typically wake up between 4.30 and 5.30 and she's somewhere between 5.30 and 6.30. And then we try to stay quiet as long as we can to let the children sleep as long as possible. And so our breakfast time is, it kind of floats on, okay, when am I done with my devotions? When she's done with, typically around 7.30, but we take shifts on what's going on that day, who's making breakfast. Once you've thrown kids into the mix, Good job serving your wife, man.
That's awesome. He talks about willing sacrifice. I really love this quote when he talks about being willing to die, even unto death. So this is, I think, the second full paragraph under the subheading death. A man who embraces such love will experience grace of death to self. Marriage is a call to die, and a man who does not die for his wife does not come close to love to which he is called. Christian marriage vows are the inception of a lifelong practice of death. of giving over not only to all you have, but to all you are.
And I guess that's like the essence of what I was trying to say. It's not just, oh, if somebody put a gun to my wife's head, I would take the bullet for her. No, no. You might say that. That's great. But are you living it in your marriage now? Is your whole life showing? this willingness to die to self and put your wife in front of you. It's really challenging. Yeah. Yeah, it is. I think, yeah.
I actually had a question for you because he talks about, at least in my version, up one paragraph from where you read, he says, if you do not understand this, you do not know what marital love is. It claims everything. And I have a question like submission and love to Christ. Where does that play into marriage, claiming everything? Yeah, I think maybe I'm reading too much into what he's trying to say. I think so. I think all he's saying is that, you know, there's no aspect in your life that's not going to be challenged by marriage. Yeah. You know, my career is touched by our marriage, how I eat. is impacted.
I can either eat selfishly or I can eat in a way that's helping Olivia and serving her and caring for her. What time I go to bed, what time I wake up, what I do when I first wake up, what I do before I go to bed. Every aspect of my day and of my life is deeply intertwined with what does Olivia need, what is most loving to her. Because it hurts Olivia, There's often when I come home from Bible studies and I don't get home until 9.30, 10 o'clock at night, my mind is still racing.
But if I decide to come in my office and just sit in here and think and pray and work, and she feels abandoned, like, why didn't you just come to bed and snuggle? And I'm like, well, because I was thinking, and she's like, can you think in bed? That's her preference. She hates when I'm gone.
And so I think that's kind of where he's getting at is that okay, um, it's Any guy who comes into marriage and thinks that well, this is just at something adding on to my life No, no, no. Yeah marriage isn't adding on to your life. Yeah, your life is now forever changed because you are Married. Yeah Yeah, I kind of kind of wrote that on the margins here because he says he talks about dying to self And like giving not only all you have but all you are yeah and thinking about what happened when I was reborn by the holy spirit like my identity. Yeah, like i'm not simon anymore. I'm in christ Like that's how the New Testament describes believers in Christ, right? That's my identity. And everything revolves around that, right? My eternity, my actions, everything.
And even so, like, although in a lesser way, but in a still real way, like when I'm married, I'm no longer Simon, but I'm married Simon, right? Like I am the husband of Natalie, is who I am now. I mean, even your Facebook account, you guys have a... Yeah. And so like, even like how I interact with other women, like I don't interact with them just as like an isolated entity. interact with them as the husband of Natalie, right? And how that, even that, like, there's a concentric reality that you live around with that. Yeah, absolutely.
So after that part, you kind of, I just keep taking the wheel, man, I'm sorry. Oh, no, you're good. With suffering, you know, Christ suffers with his bride and husbands ought to suffer with and for theirs. Have you seen this in your life? Or you can talk about your marriage or other marriages. Have you seen husbands suffer with and for their wives?
Yeah, this is actually something we had to work through at our barrage a little bit because I would tell Natalie, you know, she'd be going through something either in her walk with the Lord or more recently at work and I would just be down. She's like, why are you down? I'm down. Like we don't need two down. I was like, no, I'm burdened for you. Like I, you know, when you hurt, I hurt and it took a while. And I was like, no, like, I'm not like trying to be a downer on an already down situation. I get what you're going through is rough, like, but I care about, you know, and I think that that took us both a little bit of learning kind of how to do that properly and how to receive that properly.
And then seeing her reciprocate, that was kind of cool, too. Well, I think that that's, once again, a clear way in which we as husbands can show the love of Christ to our brides is Christ, this is one of my big things in the book of Hebrews when it says that Jesus, you know, is able to sympathize with us. That's how some translations say. I actually think it's better to translate that empathizes with us.
Because it's not just that Jesus knows it from a distance and can say, oh, I feel sorry. But no, Jesus was incarnate, walked in the flesh, and is so intimately tied and experientially with us that he empathizes with us. You know, I loved when R.K. Hughes pointed out when Jesus comes into interaction with Saul, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? You know, Jesus so identifies himself with his people that when Saul is dragging the Christians out of their homes, Jesus, that's Jesus, you know, hold on, you're persecuting me.
And so that empathy that, you know, I think it's dangerous as husbands if we aren't being empathetic towards our wives when they hurt, if we don't hurt. And I think You know, I'm sitting here kind of shamefaced as I think, you know, over the last decade plus of my marriage and thinking about, you know, how often Olivia will be going through something and I have just cold heartedly, like, I don't understand what you're going through.
In a certain sense, I don't, you know, but there's often when, you know, the most loving thing is to be empathetic. Right. And I, I think there are times that I haven't stepped into that place emotionally and checked my own heart and be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on, buddy. I need to understand how she's feeling and how she's going through these things. You get a Bible passage. That always trumps what I'm about to say. Yeah. Yeah. No, I was just, I was reading the other day in Isaiah and even in the Old Testament, just seeing this, like you, you would describe empathy of God.
Um, Isaiah 63 verse nine, in all their affliction, he was afflicted and the angel of his presence saved them in his love and in his pity, he redeemed them and he bore them and carried them all the days of old. Just seeing the tenderness of the Holy Spirit and being with his people. What they went through, he went through. He led them. He bore them. He carried them through that.
And while, again, this marriage paradigm is a shadow of that, we're still nevertheless held to that standard of treating our wives in that way, which is a high thing to live up to. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of these are high things to live up to, aren't they? Yeah. So here's just my softball pastor theological question. Are you ever going to live up to it perfectly? No. So what do you do when you don't?
You know, you cast yourself on the grace of God, you know, and ask for forgiveness. And, and I think you, you know, I think I was very overwhelmed. I still am day to day, um, just with the calling of being a husband and just praying through, okay, well, his grace is sufficient. His power is made perfect in your weakness. That's what this is about. This isn't necessarily about you getting it right, but for Christ to be exalted. in you being a husband to your wife. Yeah. And it's not about, I mean, I can work harder at it and try and try. And I just fall even harder on my face and my own strength. Yeah. Well, I think that this one, one of the things I, uh, I love this book because he just deals seriously.
You know, if there's anything that evangelical church needs, it's knock it off with this wussy theology, you know, hold on, let's get to work then, you know? Um, but at the same time, always recognizing that Ephesians 2, 1 through 9 comes before Ephesians 2, 10. These are the good works that God has prepared in advance that we should walk in them. But we're never going to do them perfectly. And I have found in my marriage that when I recognize that, And Olivia sees that I'm striving, but when I fail, I'm willing to say, I done messed up.
Right. You know, she's and I apologize and she sees repentance and then there's actual reconciliation and the gospel is actually played out in a more beautiful way than if I just think I got this. Right. Yeah. I'm doing everything right. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
And I think when we do that to ourselves, or if we do that to our spouse and expect them to do everything right, and don't allow for grace for them to fail and for them to sin, we're in a way setting a bar and creating an idol of a wife or myself that is not there. Like it's not going to exist on this side of glory. Yeah. So yeah, I think we before we got married we read a book called when sinners say I do And I don't remember the author but it was talking about that like you married a sinner Deal with it. Like don't It is unreasonable and unbelievable like yes, we are to pursue To spur each other on to loving good works and to to run the race well, but if you are holding your Wife to a standard that you yourself aren't even accountable to you. Yeah, you've got You've got, you know, kind of a fantasy in your head of what marriage really is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
So he talks about suffering, about how Christ identifies with our suffering, suffers with us and how we should bear the burdens of our lives. And then he moves on to intercession. So this is all under the heading of sacrificial love, sacrificial love and death, sacrificial love and suffering, and finally intercession. And he kind of points us back to Christ's practice, even when we see him on this earth before he goes to the cross, interceding for us in his high priestly prayer in John 17. But even now, you know, Hebrews tells us he ever lives to make intercession for us. And this one was challenging for me. He talks about giving ourselves, let's see, We understand that giving ourselves for our bride involves prayerful intercession.
Men, do you pray for your wives with something more than, bless good old Margaret and all she does? If not, you're sinning against them and against God." I'm just like, oof. Like, you know, like you were saying, he kind of cuts to the chase of like, he's just like, no, you're sinning if you do, if that's all you do. And, um, like how often I can, like, yes, I'm going to pray for my wife every day, but am I actually interceding for her? You know, am I actually wrestling with God before the throne for her soul, for her well-being? She might be sanctified.
And I think that's something I kind of had to go like, oof, oof, oof on. Yeah. So just to get a little bit nitty gritty here, you know, how do you pray for Natalie then? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I asked her tonight. Right before you came. Hold on. I know Brian's going to ask you those questions. Yeah. No. No. We usually do try to...
We usually try to go on a date or some like special time, like once a week and usually try to do like a heart level, like check in there with each other. But I feel like that needs to happen a little bit more because there's things that happen between seven days in a week, oddly enough.
And so I think that's kind of where I felt myself lacking. where it's like, okay, yes, I know like generally what's going on in the season of life for you, but I want to know like, Natalie, like day to day, like what is going on? Like, how can I intercede? Because otherwise it's like, you know, have a good day at work, maybe experience God's presence with you, you know, be protected from sin and like all these things. But like, I want to know her before God's throne better than that on a day to day basis.
And so I think trying to grow in that is something that this, this kind of kicked me in the butt to do. Well, I will just say that there was a good piece of advice given to us by my pastor out in Pennsylvania, Micah Ramsey. He gave Olivia and I, we were doing some marriage counseling with him and his wife, Leslie, great friends. And he gave us something that I think has really enriched our marriage.
And that's every night before we go to bed, I ask Olivia, how did I hurt your feelings today? And it's very rare that there's something I did not hurt her feelings about, whether that's I didn't make sure I got off work on time, or I was a little bit too coarse with the children, with being impatient, or any number of things. I might have let my tone show annoyance at a time. There's a myriad of ways in which my heart can sin and hurt her feelings.
And so I asked her that, and then she asked me, And I don't make her do this. You know, it's always my initiation to start this. Well, I shouldn't say that. Sometimes she'll say, so are you praying with me tonight? And I know, okay, she wants the questions. And so, but so then she asks, how did I make you feel disrespected?
So we have that conversation. and then we actually talk about what our day looks like the next day, and then I pray for Olivia. And so this happens every single night, and it has been a huge revitalization in our marriage, just because it's that daily going before the throne of grace with and for Olivia. So I I use that time, sometimes I'll pray for the children and for whatever's going on the next day, but I try to specifically spend that time, and this is only five minutes maybe. This whole thing that happens, sometimes it turns into an hour if there's a lot that we need to talk about. But it gives me time that each night when Olivia goes to sleep, she knows that I love her enough to have stopped and have actually gone and prayed for her. And I found it as now a very sweet time in our marriage that every night we have our own little prayer meeting. So in this, this is one area, I'm not trying to pat myself on the back, but I'm honestly saying I got great advice from my previous pastor, and we enacted it, and we've seen fruit in our marriage from just praying with and for each other.
Yeah. And I think there's something too different. I don't know if it was you or... Maybe my former pastor talked about this, but not just saying you'll pray for someone, but actually having that person hear you pray for them. Like praying in their presence is really a different thing. Like I'm much more blessed by that. And I hope Natalie is too, but trying to cultivate more of that is something I was like, okay. yeah, I'm praying for you, versus like, no, let's sit down and actually pray for you.
Yeah. So I think that's, that's another that, that practice that you guys have, which I think is really good kind of helps implement that on a more disciplined regular level. Well, I'm gonna say we have a, we kind of have a, Oh, we might not want to run into the same problem we did last time where we tried to record two episodes at once.
Do we want to kind of wrap things up there and pick it back up on sanctifying love? Or maybe we can do sanctifying love because self-love is the one that has a lot included in it. Do we want to maybe do sanctifying love and then we'll do self-love? We'll break it there. Okay. We'll talk about narcissism next time. Okay. Well, sanctifying love, you want to take that? Yeah. Yeah, I just was struck by his first opening comment here, at least in my version.
It says, marriage under the lordship of Christ is a mutually sanctifying relationship. It moves us toward holiness. I can't remember some church history thing we were doing in Sunday school months ago now. And a pastor and his wife were in church history. He was talking about Can you say on the last day of your or I think he was saying he could say on the last day of his wife, I know Christ better because of her. And that's kind of what that made me think of.
And just kind of a self-check like, is my marriage mutually sanctifying, moving us towards holiness? Because like, you don't get married because you like someone necessarily. You don't get married just because the other person's cute. you get married so that God might be glorified in both of you knowing Christ better, right? And being better used for his kingdom than if you were apart.
And that's something I was like, wow, that's a good self-check there for me. Like, can Natalie say that of me? Can I say that of her? And if not, you know, are we doing, are we really putting first things first in our marriage? But yeah, what do you think about that idea?
Well, I think it's really good. I mean, yes, I think it's biblical and all that. When you said that, I thought about, you know, seminary exams or presbytery exams are one of these somewhat artificial things where we only hear from the dude, you know, we hear from the guy. I've often thought for a number of the exams, you know, personal godliness, pastoral gifts, things like that. I'd really like to have the elders he's been with, you know, come up, or even better, his wife come up. And I remember asking Olivia before I was going to be a pastor, just asking her, you know, Hey, I mean, we had this conversation at the table.
I said, Oh, do you, Do you think that in all honesty, I could say to you, you know, imitate me as I imitate Christ? Like, do you think that, like, I need you to be brutally honest with me? Do you think that you would want to, I mean, do you want, would you want me to be your pastor? If you were going, if you weren't married to me, you know, And I mean, I was kind of like waiting for her to be like, not a chance, buddy.
You know, but, but I was surprised. And I think part of that is just from humility and sense of, of, but just recognizing that, like, Our marriage is supposed to be that, whether I'm her pastor or not. Husbands wash your wives in the water of the word. Is Olivia more holy today than she was on July 3rd, 2010 because of being married to me? Or is she less holy? Does she love Christ more? Is she growing in grace more? Is she desiring Christ more?
I often say the home is the furnace of refining for sanctification, especially with children. And so there's trials that comes up and there's opportunities for repentance and for seeing for seeing the depths of my own sin, you know, my own selfishness, my own self-centeredness, all my self, self, selves, you know, and it all has consequences on Olivia.
You know, if I'm tired, Am I being irritable towards Olivia and the children? If I'm exhausted from a long day of work, am I still patient and kind? Am I displaying the traits of holiness and godliness that then Olivia would reciprocate with those same, you know, and so giving her every opportunity based on my leading our family in holiness. I think that that's one aspect.
And the second aspect is giving her every opportunity in our marriage, even outside of our, or structuring our home and giving her opportunities outside of our home to also grow in sanctification. Whether that's making sure she has time to go to women's prayer meeting or go to Midwest Presbytery women's retreat, or if she needs time, that she needs two hours to go away from children when you homeschool four children, sometimes you just need to be away from children for an hour or two. And so this is one that really burdens me, you know, because I do wonder, you know, is Olivia actually closer to Christ? Because how I've loved her like Christ or You know, I sit here and I think, I don't know how she could be, because I fall so short of Christ.
So this is just kind of me sharing my heart here. Now I'm embarrassed that this is being recorded and everything, but I really struggle with that, you know, like, This is our job. Right. This is my number one thing in our marriages. Yeah, you know, husbands love your wife says Christ loves the church. But what is Jesus busy about? Jesus is busy about making us more and more beautiful. He's cleansing us of our sin. He's renewing our hearts. He's robing us in his righteousness.
Am I doing that for Olivia? I mean, obviously I can't give her my righteousness. I can't atone for her sins. But in any way, does our marriage have the hallmarks of grace? That this is a home in which when the last day comes, you know, and I have to give an account for how I have cared for Olivia, is Christ going to say, you know, she's more beautiful because she married you? You know, you washed her in the water of the Word. Your home was this place where her prayer life was cultivated, where grace abounded in her heart, where she learned humility, where she found a husband that she was able to submit to, not out of fear, but out of love, because you loved her well. I know the end of that answer is going to be, no, I didn't do it perfectly. So this was like a really heavy part of this chapter for me. Yeah.
I think it too, it makes me think of, I mean, our calling as men, we'll probably get to this later, of being a father. You know, God likens himself to being a father. Psalm 103, as a father pities his children. And so in a sense, when in a godly home, when your children look to you, they're getting an idea of what their Heavenly Father might be like. Now, we're like, God, God's not like us, right?
So that's not a two-way street. But it's a similar thing with our marriages. When my wife looks at me, is she seeing the love of Christ displayed towards her? Yeah. Not perfectly, not me being Christ, but is she seeing Christ's love, Christ's sacrifice, Christ's leadership, Christ's shepherding heart, Christ's gentleness, Christ's graciousness, Christ's firmness in me poured out to her? Because it's not my own product. You know, this isn't my idea to like treat her nicely. That goes against everything in my flesh by nature, right? But can she have a better understanding of the Savior's love for her in the way that I treat her? And that's a high calling, because I mean, you know, Ephesians 5 is not mincing words.
It talks about Christ went to the cross for his bride. Christ is spending eternity with his bride to perfect her. I mean, these are like, there is no greater love than dying. There is no longer time than eternity. There's no greater beauty than perfection, right?
And he's saying, yeah, husbands. this is your calling. And these are lofty goals. Yeah. Lofty bars that we are set to. Yeah. And I guess this is where I'm saying, the beauty of it is, at the end of the day, Yes, I am responsible for this. But praise God that he's using imperfect tools to accomplish his perfect plan. That Olivia's sanctification isn't dependent on me, like the Lord uses our marriage, but his Holy Spirit uses our marriage for his glorious end. And this is where, this is what I'm saying, I love Arkent Hughes and his ability, you know, men put in the spiritual sweat.
Right. But sometimes I just want to take that mantle off for a moment and say, hold on, I've been yoked to Christ. And at the end of the day, I need to be able to apologize to Olivia and say, I haven't accomplished this perfectly. Will you forgive me? Yeah. And in that, as she sees me not just asking for forgiveness, not just saying sorry and doing the exact same thing the next day, but actually truly showing repentance. I recognize in Olivia's life when there's true repentance in my life, there's even more submission, there's more trust, there's more love, there's more grace in our marriage.
I was specifically thinking about, you know, I'm an open book with a lot of this with the congregation, you know, I struggle with gluttony, and I got up to really close to 200 pounds, and I've been working really hard, so I'm way down from that. But seeing how much more, and this seems stupid, right? I know most people listening to this are like, well, whatever, you know.
But even just like Olivia trusting me with our diet, when I'll tell her like, oh, that's a really good food for us. But the proof is in the pudding. Because she's seen me put off gluttony and put on self-control. And that's affected our marriage. Because now, she even told me, she's like, I'm so glad that you took this seriously. This isn't like me trying to be healthy and you're like, oh, just give me my Cheetos, you know?
Right. But no, like we're in this together. Right. And so. You have some Bible for me, man, take over. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I just, you were talking about this heavy mantle and this burden. And I mean, that's, that is what God's word is. That's what the law is, right? It is unattainable on this side of glory.
And yet we're still called to it. And apart from Christ, we come to the law and it slays us like it did Paul, right? and it curses me every single, every single letter of the law curses me. And, you know, Galatians talks about how Christ has taken that curse for us and we've been saved by grace. And I just, maybe we can close with this, to give us maybe a perspective on this rooted in the gospel, you know, Ephesians 2, talking about God, who's rich in mercy because of his great love with which he loved us. even when we were dead in trespasses made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved and raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus in this verse that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us in Christ Jesus this is about God's grace on display in you and in me and in our marriages. And praise God for that because it's not me on display. Amen. Amen. Well, with that, I'm going to pray for us. Sounds good.
Father, we thank you so much for the grace that you have poured out upon us in Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit that you have given in us to cry out, Abba, Father. We thank you, Lord, that Our schoolmaster, the law has led us to the knowledge of sin, but that you have freed us from the weight, the guilt, the curse of sin and death, and you have given us life in your Son. Lord, we do thank you for our marriages. We thank you for the gift of knowing that this is a picture of the great love that you have for us.
And Father, we pray that we as husbands Or that we would seek, strive, fight, earnestly desire to love our wives as you have loved your church, your bride. Lord, we pray that you would please give us your spirit. That we wouldn't do this out of a sense of slavish fear. But Lord, because you have loved us, we pray that we would love those who you have given to us to love most dearly.
Lord, we pray for Christian marriages in our country, in our churches throughout the globe. We pray for a restoration of biblical marriage. Please, Lord, let men truly be godly husbands for your glory. In Jesus's name. Amen. Amen. Until next time. Yeah. All right. See you later.