Loneliness and Friendship

Have you ever found yourself lonely before? Have you ever found yourself just on the outside of the social bubble? Have you ever felt like you're on the B list of friends? Have you struggled to make friends? Have you struggled to make friends outside of social media? Have you struggled with a theology of friendship? Or even have you struggled to make friends in the church? Well, today we have a conversation, just an informal conversation with my friend Kyle.
He's a pastor down in Winchester, Kansas. And so I hope that you'll enjoy this conversation he and I had today about friendship. I do want to apologize to you. I was fiddling around with the recordings as I was starting the conversation, and so I hope you'll forgive me for that. Also, please forgive me for looking down the screen where Kyle was, here underneath the camera. I wanted to see him, but then I noticed it looked like I wasn't looking at him. I was looking at him, but the camera's a little bit different, so I hope you'll forgive me there.
I wasn't trying to be uh you know no eye contact a social extrovert or social introvert type person anyways i hope you find this video helpful it was immensely helpful to me and kyle is a great friend and a wonderful biblical pastor okay well we'll go ahead and get to the conversation i one of our our congregants put up a article that I sent you on being a befriend list.
And, and so did you get a chance to read through the article? I did, yes. Okay, yeah, it's pretty quick read. But I was really, you know, this is these, this is a family that I care deeply about, you know, and, and at one point, my heart was kind of saddened to hear that that's how this person feels. But then, by the end of it, you know, the them agreeing with the conclusion was really helpful. And so I wanted to kind of, we had had a little bit of conversation about the younger generation and how they're building friends. And, and so maybe I'll let you give a synopsis of what you read in the article.
Yeah, so the article came from a very honest place for the author that was writing it and using the imagery of, you know, the A list and the B list. And so the A list kind of, in this context, the author was talking about how, you know, people in their relationships, they have an A list.
They have people who are quote unquote, in the inner circle. And then there's the B-list, you know. These are people that, well, I don't dislike them. It's not like I find anything antagonistic or obnoxious about them. But it's those people who feel that they remain on the outside of the inner circle. And so one of the things the author was just expressing is, you know, people often tell me I'm nice, I'm funny, they enjoy my company. But at the end of the day, I'm not really brought into the inner circle. It doesn't seem like there's anything wrong with me.
But if people want to include me, it's only when there's groups of people being included. If people want to text me, it's only when they are texting a big group of people. And just kind of the wrestling with that, like, is there something wrong with me? What's going on here? And just kind of that that exhaustion from being a B-list friend. And I think more than anything, just the spirit and the heart that came out in the article is just the desire to have true friendships. To not simply be content with being at an arm's length from somebody, but wanting to have real relationships where not only is this person investing in others, but others are also likewise investing in their life, so.
Yeah, there's a whole bunch of branches of thought that came into my mind as I was reading through this. Maybe we can just explore a few of those and I don't want to monopolize your time today. But actually, before we even keep going, I just realized I'm going to be posting this and I haven't even introduced you. I don't need an introduction. Anonymity is my best friend.
Well, maybe we could just say we're a bunch of, we're a couple country pastors, but where are you at? Country bumpkin pastor is how I often introduce myself. My name is Kyle Borg. I'm the pastor of the Reformed Presbyterian Church in Winchester, Kansas. So Winchester is in the northeast corner of Kansas.
It's a community of 513 people. And I'm, in July, will be celebrating my eighth year here as pastor. That's great. And just so you know, I disagree with the conclusion you and Jim came to. I think Sharon is more rural than Winchester, as far as the congregation goes. Well, you know, Brian, maybe that's a discussion for another day. That's a nice way to say you're right, but I don't want to discuss it online. That's fine. I don't want to embarrass you in front of everybody. Thanks. I appreciate that. I don't want to be on your B list.
But no, I, I think this article was, uh, you know, coming from an honest place in this, in this girl's heart, you know, um, by the way, if, if anybody's watching this, I'll put a link down in the comments and it will be, uh, for view from home.com and then a whole bunch of string for, uh, but the article is titled it's lonely being the B list friend. Um, and I just, did you, have you ever felt this before, you know, in different social groups where you felt like you were on the B list? You know, I was thinking about that. I was reflecting on that after reading the article.
And I think there are parts of this article that I'm very sympathetic with and would probably see manifest in my own life. At the same time, I think it likely takes a little bit of a different character in my own life. Just given my personality and the way in which I relate to people. I think innate and intrinsic and in so many of our lives.
I think the vast majority of people would recognize a degree of loneliness, you know, I think even if you look up statistically. psychology for as much as you can trust psychological statistics, what three of five people report being significantly lonely in their lives. That's like pre-COVID statistics. So who knows what this last year has done to exacerbate that in people's lives. So do I feel like I might be on a B-list friends?
Yeah, I do. You know, sometimes as a pastor, you feel that way. And I know this probably isn't directed specifically at pastoral ministry, but it can be easy to feel that way sometimes as a pastor. So I think I've probably experienced something of what the author is saying here, albeit in maybe a slightly different way. It was my initial reaction as I thought about it. Yeah, I actually found myself feeling like, I actually read this article and I went in and I told Olivia, I said, man, this is like me. you know, because I often feel this way.
I was just praying to the Lord, uh, Monday or Tuesday about this, you know, like, uh, Lord, I have friends, but I feel really lonely lately. Um, and I, I go through bouts of depression. And so for me, you know, it could just be my personality and just being worn out and not getting enough sleep and what was me, you know?
Um, but I was, as I was kind of looking through this, I was just thinking, you know, especially in the age of social media and especially with COVID, singing how many people kind of feel at that arm's length, you know, kind of never able to kind of get into solid deep relationships. And I was wondering, what do you think is the what do you think is the is missing? What do you what do you think is the the the heart of the what's what's how to put this into words? What do you think it is in people's lives that keep them from being able to actually foster those close friendships outside of their nuclear family?
Yeah, so I think there's all kinds of dynamics at work if I were to think about it. And that's a good question. And some of what I'm about to say is going to be a little bit shooting from the hip. So maybe you're going to be a good fodder for discussion. I think one of, you know, and part of it I'm going to suspect you know, at the risk of sounding toxically masculinist or what's the word? Toxic masculinity. Some of it's going to depend on gender dynamics, I think. So if I approach this as a man and I think about these things, I think one of the most fundamental things lacking in so much of the fellowship of the church is a really robust theology of friendship. You know, I've been challenged lately.
I'm preaching a series through the life of David. And of course, you cannot deal with the life of David without one, recognizing David's loved by everybody. I mean, the Bible makes that very clear. He was loved by Saul for a time and the people of Israel loved him and Michael loved him and Jonathan loved him. And that's a repeated theme in David's life. But One of the things, of course, when you study the life of David, you can't separate it from the friendship with Jonathan.
And we don't know a lot of the inner workings or the depth of that relationship other than the way that David himself chooses to express that, that he had a love for Jonathan that surpassed, you know, the love of women. And of course, since the 1980s, anytime we hear that, we jump to some kind of homoerotic conclusion about that. Well, that must mean David and Jonathan were gay men. Well, prior to 1980, nobody had a problem reading that. And I mean that. I think it was in 1980, scholars began to then suggest, well, there must be something gay going on here. But there isn't at all.
It's just that it is a picture of the profound friendships and the love of friendship that we are to have in our lives. And I think that theology is missing. And I think that many men, given our hyper-sexualized culture, the idea of having close, intimate friendships with other men, it's even telling, isn't it, that the word intimate is often used only in relation to sexual intimacy. And so the idea of being intimate with other men, people suddenly get ideas and pictures in their heads, failing to realize the word intimate has a much broader meaning than that. But I think in our hyper-sexualized culture, it has really done a lot to fuel a weak theology of friendship. And I think that men from that aspect are very much on the receiving end of that, that this is a lost grace in church fellowship and church life today.
I think as well, I like the way that you framed your question because you asked, how did you put it? Something about the nuclear family. And, you know, I think this is kind of shoot from the hip and maybe historians would challenge it, but there is such an emphasis on the nuclear family today. And, you know, families, in one sense, I get that in the history of the world, family units often didn't depart from one another. They grew up, they lived, they died in very close proximity. And so without trying to draw too much from past generations, one thing that I have noticed is so much of people's lives are lived within the social circle of the family. It is the nuclear family. It is siblings. It is cousins. It is, you know, whatever.
That forms the primary um scope of of of even friendships uh and relationships that they have and that that too i think needs to be challenged a little bit by our theology of the communion of saints and fellowship in the church that i think the bible recognizes yeah a close family is a tremendous blessing you know i have a twin brother who I'm very close to, and I'm very close with my older brother, and I regard that as a wonderful gift in my life that I would not want any other way. At the same time, the Bible recognizes that I do think the relationship that we have with people in the church, in the bond of the Spirit, and the fellowship of Jesus Christ, is a relationship that, dare I say, is even more significant. than our family relationships. You know, it's great when those two intersect and yet oftentimes they don't. And I think we've come to undervalue and underappreciate what that fellowship, what those relationships with other Christians are supposed to be and look like. So those are a couple, I've often wondered if that plays into some of all of this. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. A few different. I mean, again, this is just a conversational type thing.
But, you know, I was thinking about the elders here were recently thinking about this and how can we foster these friendships, especially as our congregation, the Lord has been blessing us with some growth and trying to get the new members of the church or new adherents, new, new attendees at the church to, be able to interact with each other in an informal way. And so actually tonight, Olivia is having all the ladies come to the house and they're having a soup dinner where they talk about whatever they're going to talk about. Uh, and, uh, all the guys and the kids come to the church and we have pizza and ping pong, um, and just card games and just playing with hanging out with each other and getting to know each other and trying to foster those friendships, even with the children in the congregation. Um, you know, how, how do we, that's been a question we've been trying to figure out, how do we foster those organic friendships?
But I think you're right that there is a dearth in our culture that I think the church at one point, you know, was the center that, that built these friendships and that could become cliquish. And we could talk about that some other time, but I was talking to somebody who runs an organization called F3 and it's like, uh, this fitness and fellowship type workout thing that it's all over the country. And it's kind of similar to a CrossFit slash calisthenics group, where it's a whole bunch of guys who just get together in different places throughout the U S and they just work out with each other and try to build friendships. Uh, and when I was talking to the guy who was organizing it and just trying to kind of feel, feel my way through what they were all about, uh, he actually said, you know, Most guys, once you're out of college, once you're out of the military, once you're out of kind of those organizational structures that build up the fraternal relationships, most guys lose most of their friends.
And they no longer find that. And especially if the church isn't a place where we can actually be vulnerable and honest and be friends with each other. Do you know what I mean? There's theological friends and then there's real friends. Does that make sense? I'll pull back the curtain here a little bit.
I was telling someone a little while ago that whenever I go to Senate or Presbyterian people, I go, how's it going? How's ministry? I'm always like, okay. how much bad stuff do I share? And how much good stuff do I share? Because I don't, I don't want to be that jerk who's like, Oh yeah, things are going great. Or, and I don't want to be everything's falling apart. Exactly. I don't want to be that Debbie downer that nobody wants to hang around with. Cause Oh, what was me in ministry is so hard. Yup.
Uh, but even in life, I mean, I think people come to church and maybe in formal circles, like, you know, we find ourselves in the RP church. Uh, there's, kind of like you're either talking about theology or, or you don't talk. And I think some of that is good, you know, people trying to sanctify the Lord's day. But on the other side, I'm sitting there thinking, but you're real people more than just brains for theology. So that's one kind of area I was thinking about fostering those organic friendships that the communion of saints should, you know, we have a connection, a thread that runs through our souls, and his name is Jesus Christ.
But I was thinking about also, I'll get your take on this. Olivia was reading a book written by a pastor's wife, to pastors wives. And she was saying her advice was don't become friends with any women in the congregation. And I kind of I didn't understand it. So I want to kind of hear what your thoughts are on that. And I know that this is but but this is, I think, sometimes putting yourself in the B list, or, and this, so I guess the whole conversation around friendship, and I want to kind of get your thoughts on that. Yeah, clearly written by one of the urban elites who has no idea what it is to live and exist in a small community. So I actually think that is some of the worst advice I've ever heard.
And I say that more than just this context, that was one of the questions that was often thrown around in seminary, not just pastors' wives, should pastors be friends with people in the church? And you often, you get different perspectives on that, but by and large, unless I just misheard things, the message that I got in my training to be a pastor was by and large, well, no, you should find friends outside of the church to be your best friends or to be that social circle that you need. And it was often even encouraged just in some of the practical pastoral theology classes, you know, when you get to a church, find some people in the community that, you know, have nothing to do with the congregation and get to be friends with them. And I have no problems with expanding a social circle outside of the boundaries of the church, but I think it is a ridiculous and unrealistic, you know, expectation that a pastor or even a pastor's wife does not have the closest friendships within the boundaries of the church.
You know, if we're going to seek to preach and to foster fellowship in the congregation, if we are going to sell people, and I don't mean that in a salesman way, that sounded so stupid. If we're going to truly be convinced that the church is where we have the deepest relationships, you know, and especially the local congregations where Jesus Christ has called us to be, you know, how terrible for me to try to preach and to teach people, you know, you need to be invested in this community of believers.
You need to rely, you need to shoulder one another's burdens. You need to weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice. You need to rally around, you need to protect, you need to encourage. And then me myself taking a step back from that and saying, except for me, me and my family, me and my wife, we're the one exception to the rule because I'm the pastor. I think it's terrible. I think it's terrible. And it does, there are challenges there.
You know, I understand that, you know, a pastor can't become such best friends with people in the congregation that other people are feeling left out and neglected because that can easily happen. At the same time, to think that we should not invest ourselves and be invested in, I just think is terrible advice. I would never counsel a man or a pastor's wife to say, find your friendships outside of the church. I'd say, no, find them in the church, dig your roots very deeply, learn to be loved and learn to love in return.
And I think you will see the body of Christ being the body of Christ. Yeah, I totally agree. I found myself, uh, you know, I go to coffee with the, with a couple of the farmers and members of the guys in the congregation, uh, rural life is funny. I never thought I'd stand around a gas station and drink coffee with guys, but that's what we do. As you stand around the gas station, are you leaning on the bed of a truck? Because it's cold. So it's, it's inside. It's always inside. Uh, but we, uh, you know, I take Mondays off. And so Olivia asked me one time, she said, Well, are you going to go to coffee when I switched my days off from Saturday to Monday? And I said, Well, yeah, I'm still going to go to coffee.
She's like, but you're going to be talking to the guys. And I was like, Yeah, they're my friends. That's what I do. Like, yeah, like, of course, I'm gonna go drink coffee with the guys. You know, that's, that's, that's like the highlight of my day is getting to go and drink coffee with them and just you know, hear about what's going on in town and talk to them. We razz each other a bit, you know, they make fun of me and, uh, I try. Uh, it's, it's a good time, you know?
And so, uh, sometimes the kids want to come with me and they get a donut if they come. Uh, and yeah, it's, it's. Wow. Your community sells donuts and you think you're Mr. Rural, you know, it's our gas station, man. That's, that's 15 minutes to get a donut, Brian. Just remember that. Well, that's fine. I have to drive three miles down the gravel just to get to that gas station. But anyways, yeah, so that was just one of those things where I thought, you know, I can't see how that's healthy. You know, not having friends in the local congregation. But yet, at the same time, you know, when I was in college, I remember I was reading through john Adams, letters. So the second president of the US and I was reading through his letters.
And as he was writing to his wife, Abigail, when he was in France, and she was in the US, he was, he would always address his letters to her my best friend. And so I read this before Olivia and I ever got married, and I've, I've always called her my best friend. So I think there I think there is something good to say, though, about, you know, in my family, you know, Olivia is my best friend. You know, my wife, I, I can bare my soul to Olivia, I can talk to her about when, when things are going wrong. And that's where I was actually.
I thought that was a good thing with the with the article, where she, she goes, she said some things in that last part, you know, I wasn't entirely fond of, but she says, um, it's time for me. It's time. I love myself and accept my own worth. It's time to stop measuring my value by how much my friends put into our relationship. Even if I'll never be good enough, funny enough or whatever enough to make it into any else, anyone else's inner circle. If I take a step back and look side, look inside my own life, I can see my own inner circle. And it's pretty amazing. And she's talking about her husband, her children and her family.
And I thought, you know, I hope she has a healthy marriage. But I think cultivating that friendship with our wives is, is a big part of that, though, you know, I, we do need something outside of our family. But yet, I think there should be a friendship between husbands and wives that And so I wanted to hear your thoughts on that, because we could also talk about friendships with children and things like that with it. Yeah, so I mean, part of it for me would maybe depend on the way in which one would define friendship.
And I get the sentiment behind my wife is my best friend. And certainly of all the earthly relationships that I have, my relationship with my wife is the strongest. It's the most intimate relationship. I do think... going out on a limb here and not to offend, so receive it. I kind of recoil at the idea, you know, there's a lot of modern marriage books being written that speak about how for wives, your husband has to be your best friend and for your wife or for husbands, your wife has to be your best friend. And I get some of the spirit behind that, you know, you don't want to just be coexisting like roommates in a house that share no interest outside of, well, we have these children and they're mine and they're yours. So that's the extent of our relationship with one another.
So I understand that at the same time, my wife is not, she's my wife. Like I look at the spousal category as something that is distinct and different as well from just friendships. And so, again, I get the sentiment, my wife, my spouse is my best friend.
At the same time, I've shied away from that. Because recognizing Rachel is in a different category than anybody else in my life. And that's not to downplay that relationship, but it's just to maintain that it's not just a A quantitative difference, it's a qualitative difference. The relationship that I have with my spouse is qualitatively different than the relationship, for instance, that I have with my twin brother. Now, my twin brother and I are extremely close and Rachel often jokes, you know, I know I'm not your best friend.
I know Michael is. And maybe it's just a way for me to pacify a guilty conscience. But for 14 years, I've said, yeah, but you're my wife. Michael could never be my wife. And so I do, I mean, some of these things need nuance and qualification. But I guess my point in that is that as husbands, we need to realize the relationship that we have with our wives is qualitatively different than a relationship we have with other friends, as great and wonderful as friendships are. Again, it's striking, isn't it, to use that language again. David loved Jonathan with a love that surpassed that of women. What they had in friendship was qualitatively different than the relationships David would have had with his wives.
Yeah. Wives in his case, which we don't need to get into that. But, you know, I do think we can get into that for a second. That was and it was wrong. It was said, and now we can get out of that. So David is not the model of marriage and David not always the model of being a father either. But, but I do think you know the relationship the friendship that he has with Jonathan actually is I think held up in scripture as a pattern for friendship. You know, his marriages are not, his fathering is not always, but that relationship with Jonathan, and it's a relationship that is very distinct, quantitatively and qualitatively different than the relationship that he could have, should have had with his wife, singular. And so anyway, that's just a thought. Well, I get that. I get that. I'm still going to call Olivia my best friend, and that's OK. We can disagree on that. Yes, you can. If she listens to this, Olivia, I'm not trying to convince Brian to say otherwise. No, no, it's fine.
But I was thinking, though, I think you bring up a good point about also the Lord does make this distinction because there is, you know, he talks about how husbands are to love their wives and how wives are supposed to relate to their husbands and how children are supposed to relate to their parents. And so there are formal structures in which God is the one who kind of sets the boundaries and the structure for how that's supposed to operate.
I also think that there's a reality of the, uh, the covenantal nature in a marriage relationship and in how we, you know, we can bring this into children, you know, we, when we baptize our children, we make vows for what how we're going to, or we make promises about how we're going to care for these children. We also, I think that can also go into becoming a member of the local church. And we make promises to the church and to and before the entire church and, and the, and the congregation is also, especially with the baptism of a child, you know, also making promises to care for that child as a, as a member of the church family. Um, and so I wonder how much, how much of those vows we take seriously and that, that might sound hard, but how, how do we foster true relationships in the congregation where there are real family, where there are, church family friendships. What do you think? How have you seen this done well? Yeah, well, I don't know that I've actually seen it done well.
I think one of the tensions, some of the motto and the catchphrases for the day are authenticity. And I want organic relationships. And of course, organic relationships are immediately opposed to organizational relationships. I don't want a program to facilitate the organic growth of friendships. And this is all the rave in some community circles today. I think that fostering that kind of an environment is exceedingly difficult.
There's superficial ways maybe that you can say, well, this is where we need to be teaching and preaching often on the one another's. You know, this is where we need to be teaching and preaching on, you know, really a theology of community. So, you know, you rightly noted that our relationships in the church, our relationships with our spouses and children, they're covenantal relationships.
That's significant because the minute you enter into a covenantal relationship, you can no longer live life on individualistic terms. Covenant is by definition opposed to individualism. You can't have an individualistic covenant. That makes no sense.
And so part of it is fostering and developing that theology of community. I think in one sense, we all want to say, oh yeah, I recognize I wasn't created to be alone and in isolation. And it's like, we say it, but I don't know that we actually have a firm grasp on what that means. You know, when you come to deal with this and fostering those types of relationships, it's not just the one another's, it's not just the duties that we owe to each other, it's also learning how to live with all the failings and sins of one another, to know how to address sin, how to confront people in sin, how to overlook sin in that love that covers a multitude of sins. This to me is one of the most significant challenges for the church. And I'm going to say something, and I hope I don't get booed off stage. Not that I'm on a stage. I will. There we go, thank you.
I was talking recently with a young woman, I was out to coffee with her, and she has largely given up on Christianity. And we were talking in a coffee shop and she said, you know, Kyle, why is it that I find in my life, the people I gravitate the most towards are people in the LGBTQ community? And I said, you know, and I've not made any, I've not made, it's not obscure to her that she knows where I stand on LGBTQ issues. You know, those things are very rooted in sinfulness. But what I did tell her is I said, well, you know, I think that you see something. How did I put it? I don't remember exactly how I put it. So let me just put it this way. The church could learn a lot about community from the LGBTQ community.
Not the philosophies that undergird that, not the way, practically speaking, in which it always works itself outward. But I think one of the things that, you know, when you look at the statistics, once again, the LGBTQ community is a minority in our society. But why is it despite being a massive minority? I mean, we're talking about people that identify as LGBTQ. I mean, it is small percents.
Why are they able to have the impact that they do? It's because they know what it is to live in community. You know, these are people that know when, when somebody identifies as LGBTQ, they lose the world. They lose every biological relationship that they have. They lose all friends, you know, and that's probably more true in, you know, the last 20 years than it maybe is, you know, it's kind of the bandwagon thing right now. But my point is that community has learned how to rally around a person. And I think people in that community know these people have my back no matter what. These people are invested in me. I'm invested in them.
And again, I do not support the conclusions and where that goes, right? The LGBTQ community, things that love is affirmation. And I don't think that's always the case. Sometimes love doesn't rejoice in wrongdoing. And so true love doesn't just simply affirm and pat on the back. But my point is Christianity and the church could look at some of what they're doing and plunder Egypt for lack of a better expression. And to say, what is it that they understand about community that is missing in the church of Jesus Christ?
And so, but how, okay, so back to the original question, how do you foster that? That's the million dollar question. You know, I think it begins in modeling it. You know, I've always been struck, is it, I think it's Romans chapter one, where Paul talks about his eagerness to be in Rome. He says something to the extent so that I might edify you, and then he immediately very quickly adds, and be edified by you. You know, if we want to foster that kind of community if we want to cultivate the church to be that we need to take that posture of Paul I'm here to edify you but I'm also going to be edified by you, we have to lead by example. and and you know, we We have to continue preaching the gospel. We have to preach, you know, the the duties that christ asks um demands of of his church, um, but but really at the end of the day It is the spirit who's going to have to draw us into that bond and into that affection.
Um, And and I think that's good. I think that's actually a huge part, you know, um sometimes i've noticed with uh with different adherence or members of the congregation where they'll, they'll feel like, well, we feel ostracized, or we don't feel loved, or we don't. We feel like we're held at an arm's length. I've thought recently about some of these families and individuals, and I thought, you really haven't availed yourself of the of those opportunities for friendship either, because there have been a number of emails and text messages and handwritten letters and events at the church and opportunities to engage with other members in the congregation. And you kind of close yourself off to them. And I know that there are some people who feel that way in different in different churches, like, Oh, you know, I feel like it's kind of cliquish. but they're almost paralyzed for some reason.
Like the door's wide open to come into the group. Actually, you might even be members of the church and the door is wide open, but you don't regularly attend the worship services or, you know, you don't regularly, uh, come for, you know, you come in the door right before worship and the second worship is gone out the door.
Yup. Yup. Um, and I, I wrestle with that, you know, um, How have you kind of helped people along that way? You know, I think it's a good observation, and I think it's one that can and often does happen in the church. Sometimes, you know, some of the people who are the loneliest, I think it's a bit of a catch-22. They kind of put themselves in that position. Like you said, they don't avail themselves of the things that the church does have available.
One of the things that I've tried to do, whether I've been successful at communicating it or even doing it, is trying as well to try to appreciate, you know, I'm a fairly social guy. Especially if it's walking into a room of people I know and I'm comfortable around, it doesn't bring me the least degree of anxiety or worry. And it's just like, I'm just gonna go and I'm not worried. I can flit and float about easily enough and strike up conversations. I generally would pride myself in having the personality type that I can get a conversation going with most people.
And I've had to, as a pastor, learn a degree of empathy for people for whom that is not true. You know, I guess it never even entered my radar, to be bluntly honest, until I was a pastor that people experience what is often called social anxiety, you know, where just the idea of being in a group, I get tunnel vision, I begin to sweat, and I like near full-blown panic attacks just at the thought of being present.
And I've often wondered, you know, how do you get Yeah, you know, and oftentimes the people that feel lonely in the church are those people and they don't, they don't like it. They don't want it. There's a psychological and a biological reaction to being in groups of people so that it's not just as easy as saying, we've got prayer meeting on Wednesday night. If you don't want to be so lonely and you want relationships, come to prayer meeting, you know, for an extrovert, you know, ENFP on the Myers-Briggs for somebody like me, that's the answer. Like, show up where you know that makes a lot of sense now now that i know that that's who you are a bit of a poster boy for it so um but but i've i've tried to i've i've had to deal empathetically and and try to increase an awareness of that that it's and and how then you begin to deal with that That can be hard. How do you deal with people who feel the loneliness, who feel isolated, who, yes, isolate themselves, and yet they deal with these anxieties? It's not as easy enough to just say, well, get over yourself and show up.
That's not a pastoral approach at all. And to be honest, I don't have the best answers for how you do that. I think one of the things is, in pastoring is trying to cultivate, at least between that individual and myself, a comfortable relationship. And, you know, I'm just, I'm often reminded, you know, the Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5 says, admonish the idle, encourage the faint-hearted, help the weak, be patient with them all.
And I think the patience is so key there to, To help these people, I don't know, I don't know the best answers. Again, as an extrovert, it can be very hard for me to connect all of those dots. What do you think? Why don't you give me the magic formula? I don't have a magic formula. I'm the guy who, I'm very nervous in social settings until I kind of get settled for a while and then sometimes a switch will happen. I mean, every time I go to Presbytery, I'm like, okay, who do I know that I can sit next to because I don't like I'm, I'm very opposite in that way, where I have a hard time cultivating these friendships.
And so I'm a part of this and say, Come on, come on, pastor me. But, but I, I think there are some I don't want to go into the things I can tear this down, but you had mentioned Paul's letters, but he specifically says, you know, in Ephesians chapter four, let no unwholesome talk proceed out of your mouth, but only what is good for necessary edification that it might impart grace to the hearers. And I think, especially in the church that can be ignored where people can become nitpicky and tearing each other down, you know, big theological word edification, building someone up. I actually liked the NIV's translation there. Only what is good for building others up. And I think that there can become a sense in reform circles, especially if you get too many kind of truly reformed people.
You know, if you disagree on any minor point of theology, you're, you can feel like you're getting lamb blasted. I'm not sure. I don't feel, I don't feel that kind of culture in our congregation, but I know in other churches. And I think I contributed to that in some congregations. I'm right there with you. To my shame, to my shame. Yeah, absolutely. Right. But I want to spend just a few more minutes. This has kind of gotten longer.
But I want to talk for a few minutes about our generation, the generation coming up below us, especially the generation coming up below us. regarding, you know, a lot of their friendships are being primarily made online. And you had mentioned before, you know, in the LGBTQ community, which Rosario Butterfield is really helpful in understanding this. in both her first book, Secret Thoughts of the Unlikely Convert, as well as The Gospel Comes with a House Key. I think you were key on talking about the acceptance that people feel when they practice there. Now, talking to people who have come out of that community, they say it can be just as backbiting and just as petty and everything else. But I wonder if, people in our culture today are finding their friendships online because they get into friendship pods or friendship silos where, you know, well, you like the same things I do. And so we can be friends, but, but the friendship is kind of superficial. Um, I wanted to kind of get your thoughts on what you were thinking about that.
Yeah, I think, um, Social media, it's a pandemic. The crisis that faces the up and coming generation over social media, I don't think can be exaggerated. And it's fascinating, isn't it, that the young people in our churches and in our communities are more interconnected to the world than anybody has been in the history of the world. And they are by far like exponentially the loneliest generation.
And I read an interesting book recently by a woman named Abigail Schreier. And she is not a conservative Christian. She's not a Christian and she's not a conservative. But it's a book called Irreversible Damage. And the premise of the book is she is looking at the bandwagon of transgenderism.
And why is it, you know, I think she makes some note in there that prior to 2012, there was not scientific research that ever really identified girls as dealing with transgenderism. And yet in the last nine years, this has exploded. And so her big question is, what's going on in the transgender world? She's very, very worried, even as a liberal feminist, she's very worried about the transgender world. In some ways that's neither here nor there, but she traces the epicenter of the problem to social media. And she says that we have drastically underestimated the way the younger generation is using social media.
As older people, and I'm only 38 years old, but apparently now I'm the older people when it comes to social media. Dude, you're ancient. You're way older than I am. It's terrible, it's terrible. We use social media, we goof around on social media. We share memes, we connect with old high school friends. And she said, the problem is this younger generation is going to social media to shape their worldview and their understanding of self and the world around them. And as older detached people, it's next to impossible for us to even begin comprehending what that means. And she draws that into, or at least the application can be made to relationships.
I think you're right. People, these young people, their relationships exist on social media. It's amazing to me. You know, I love my high schoolers. I spent all kinds of time with my high schoolers. And it's amazing to me that we can be sitting in a circle and they're sitting next to each other, but they're Snapchatting each other.
This is how they communicate. They don't talk to one another. They are literally in the same room snapping one another. And in one sense, it's funny. In another, it's very alarming. They don't have relationship skills. They don't know how to form relationships. And I think that the crisis that social media is bringing to that is going to have a devastating effect on not only society, but the church. I can agree with that.
But the reality is, is it's not going anywhere. The reality of this is, this is where we live now. And so unless we, you know, become the fundamentalist pastors and know everything on social, I mean, I use a lot of social media and I try to do in our ministry here at Sharon, we've actually really tried to dump a lot of time and effort and resources into using it redemptively. Um, you know, I just, I wonder how, how can we, how do we just live in the, in that reality? That's, that's on us.
I mean, it's, it's not going anywhere. We found ourselves in it or, I mean, I, none of my children are young. My oldest is only nine. Um, but how, how do we, How do we talk to them? I mean, I don't use Snapchat. Personally, I think that there's some ethical things that are just worth staying away from with Snapchat. And so unless we had Snapchat, we did silly things with Olivia's mom would send her pictures of the kids and stuff. And that's the end of it. I honestly, after I deleted that, I thought, oh, Snapchat's gonna die.
And I find out that like, it's bigger than ever. So I'm this Neanderthal who's always behind the curve here. But if that's where people are finding their friends, and if that's where people are, if that's where their community is, and if that's the mode of communication which they do have, how does the church step into that in a responsible way without just being, this is all doom and gloom and bad? Yeah, I mean, again, that's the million dollar question.
I don't have all the answers. I try to engage with my high schoolers and the young people on social media. I have a Snapchat account because they set one up for me and I don't get Snapchat and I don't think it's particularly entertaining. They take pictures of the ceiling and send it to one another.
I think part of it, I mean, so I mean, it's a million dollar question. Part of it is teaching children how to use these things responsibly. We expect our children to be trained before we put them behind the wheel of a car. There's a very good reason for that.
And I think with social media, and there's so much peer influence for these kids to be getting cell phones, for them to get hooked up to social media. And I find many parents are completely ignorant and oblivious to social media. I think one of the major steps here is for parents and church leaders to just be aware, what is the social media these kids are using? What is Snapchat? How does it work? What is Instagram? What is Omegle? Which I think is the terrible, terrible social media platform that no parent should be allowing their kids on.
But I think part of it is educating ourselves and an awareness of these things You know, beyond superficial ideas, I think we need to learn how to engage kids a little bit on these things. I don't mark myself as very good or effective at that as much as I try. But I do think in, you know, without becoming fundamentalists and without making those rules, do not handle, do not taste, do not touch that have the appearance of godliness, but lack the power. We do need to find a way to emphasize that priority of face-to-face relationships.
You know, the Apostle John in 2 John concludes his letter by saying, I have other things that I want to say to you, but I won't do it with pen and ink. I'm going to do it face-to-face so that our joy may be made complete. You know, maybe that's, you know, if I channel my inner John Piper, our joy is being stolen by the lack of face-to-face relationships. That's where the glory is, you know, of Christian fellowship. And so somehow we've got to find a way to offset the social media crisis with the priority of the face-to-face.
We don't need to be scared of every shadow on the wall. Christian fundamentalists are always doing that, and it never amounts to anything very helpful. What we need is a transcendent reality to break into that, a much greater reality. to break into the paradigms and the worldviews that our young people have to make them realize it is more substantive and it is greater to have the face-to-face relationships than the shadow relationships that exist on social media. But how you do that beyond superficial, I have no idea. Write the book and I will promote it and I will buy it and I will read it, so. Oh, I don't have a book.
I just, these are honest questions that run through my mind, you know, you know, there, we, we had a meeting and we were talking about Tik TOK. And one of the members was saying, you know, I don't like Tik TOK. And I thought, well, that's fine. You know, if we don't want to use Tik TOK, you know, for the congregation, we don't have to use Tik TOK, but just to say, I don't like Tik TOK. So we shouldn't do it means you're saying here's here are thousands of people within a driving distance of the congregation that we're saying, we don't want to talk to you. We don't want to be where you are. Yep.
And I think there's ways to get around, you know, security issues and stuff like that, but where you can think creatively, but, but I think that that's all sometimes our Christians. feel about? And I mean, this isn't a new question. I mean, I remember hearing a pastor in the early 2000s, you know, my space, my space, you know, it's, it's all about me, me, me. And I, and I'm sitting there in the back row of the, of the church as a brand new Christian thing.
And I have a, my space, all my friends are on there from high school. And like, you know, that getting back to what we were talking about, but That's how I knew. That's how I kept track with all my friends from high school. And that's, and now it's Facebook that way. And then Instagram moves that way.
And, but I find myself having to curate, but we even, Oh, I'm going to go way down rabbit trails. I shouldn't go down. But the, the speed at which, especially younger generation will pick up a new social media platform and then just put it down. I can't keep up with it. Yeah. Yeah. So I totally agree. Totally agree. But that is where they're making their friendships.
It is, and to bring it back full circle, I think as well, is that I think young people, I think, maybe I'm not an optimist by nature, I'm more of a pessimist, but I think, to bring it back full circle to this article, being a B-side friend, I think as young people mature and as they get older, A lot of them are going to be writing or feeling what this article that spurred all this conversation had.
I think a lot of people are going to realize how empty and bankrupt these relationships cultivated through social media, living life there, Because we are created in the image of God, which means we are created for community. In one sense, there's no such thing as a lone wolf human, because it's written on human DNA, for lack of a better expression, to be in community and to have relationships. You can't eradicate that. And I think we're gonna continue to see loneliness um and and feeling like the b-list friend and the church is going to need to not be one step behind the church is going to need to know you know the church often is in the way that we respond to the crises of culture but the church is going to need to think very carefully about when when more than just the statistics are proving loneliness And that loneliness is manifest and expressed by lonely people. What is the church going to do then to respond to that? And we need to be prepared. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And I think we also, while I said, you know, how do we figure this out and communicate and such?
I think we, in a real way, we should lean in to what Jesus Christ established 2000 years ago and what the church is. and living out those one another's. Isn't it interesting that one of the qualifications of an elder is, you know, that given over to hospitality, cultivating those face to face relationships, inviting people over from the community, trying to open up their home and their lives and trying to do that.
I think, as Christians continue to be marginalized, possibly, or as this B list problem of loneliness grows, I think as the church continues to say, look, here's where you find grace. And here's where you find true relationships, but it's not primarily about your relationship with others. Cause I think there's a reality that our relationship with others is always going to be marred by the reality of the fall. We're always going to feel this some sense of loneliness, right? But we have, fellowship with each other because it points to our fellowship with Christ.
Yup. Yup. And so I think we can drive people past where it's, let me show you a fellowship that will go your entire life and beyond that, even past death and into life everlasting. Yup. Um, and so I think that the, that internal struggle is still real and it's still hard for, for people. It's hard for me at times. Um, And so I really appreciate you being willing to take time, unexpectedly have your day to banter about friendship. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it. All right, man. Well, I hope that this is helpful to people who are watching you can, Kyle, why don't you tell them where they can find you if people want to find out more about the second most rural congregation Winchester. Oh man, oh, that hurts, that hurts.
So you can find us on Facebook. We do do a lot with social media. Actually, you can find us on Facebook. You can find us on Instagram. You can find us on TikTok. So just head to Facebook, to Winchester, facebook.com backslash Winchester RPCNA is a good hub for most of what we're doing. That would probably be the best way.
You can also find Kyle on places like Gentle Reformation. He's on three different podcasts. The Daily Scoop for Kids daily news podcast that Kyle does. It's a fun thing. Our kids like listening to it. You can also find him on Three Guys Theologizing, 3GT dot, what is it? XYZ. XYZ, 3GT dot XYZ, interesting domain name, as well as the Jerusalem Chamber, and you can hear him banting with his very good A-list friends. Oh, God! They would be so happy to hear that. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks so much, Kyle. I really appreciate your time, man. Thank you, Brian. We'll talk to you later. All right. Bless you. Bye.